Vanilla abstraction, made with [array-max] and [array-min] by nulling found peak and run again.

array-maxx.pd
array-maxx-help.pd
array-minn.pd

Ok, the cat is out of the bag --> https://github.com/porres/pd-else/releases/tag/1.0-rc13 I'm officialy announcing the update and uploaded binaries to deken for mac (intel/arm), Win and Linux. It all looks ok but tell me if you see something funny please. There's also a raspberry pi binary but not working 100%yet and we'll still look into that. Hopefully someone could help me/us with it. I might make another upload just for the pi later on if/when we figure it out. Find release notes and changelog below.

RELEASE NOTES:

Please support me on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/porres I'll now try to add special content for subscribers. You can follow me on instagram as well if you like... I'm always posting Pd development stuff over there https://www.instagram.com/alexandre.torres.porres/

It's been a little bit over 7 months since the last update and I almost broke the record for taking too long to release an update (which had happened in my previous update). So yeah, there's just too much to talk about! I guess the delays in releasing updates is because it's been a little tricky and hard to sync the release cycles of ELSE with PlugData, which includes ELSE in its download.

Plugdata 0.9.2 should come out soon with ELSE RC13 and it's supposedly the last update before 1.0.0, so I've heard. And the plans was to get to that still in 2025! This means ELSE could be at its last "Release Candidate" phase as I'm aiming to sync the final release with PlugData. Until then, I'll still make breaking changes and I can't wait until I can't do that anymore as I really feel bad. On the other hand, it's kind of inevitable when I'm always adding new stuff and redesigning and reconfiguring objects to include more functionalities. And I always got a lot of new stuff! So I'm thinking that I will eventually try some mechanism like Pd's compatibility flag or something. I'll try to come up with something like that in the next update.

This update has 22 new objects for a total of 573 and 26 new examples in my tutorial for a total of 554 examples. Let's dive into the highlights (see full changelog below after the release notes).

• Multichannel Support: Last release had 92 MC aware objects, now it's 139! Over a 50% increase that include old and new objects (all the new ones have been coming with MC support). Virtually all oscillators and envelope generators now have MC support, plus some other random ones. Let me highlight the new [lace~]/[delace~] objects that are 'MC' tools that perform interleave/deinterleave in Multichannel connections. My bare minimum number of objects "to start with" would be at least a bit over half the number of signal objects. That was my target for 1.0! ELSE right now has 319 signal objects, so that'd be at least 160. I will definitely pass this milestone in the next update. I guess a good number of MC objects would be around 75% of the signal objects. I will aim for that as soon as I can. Some objects simply can't be MC at all, so 100% will never be the case, but maybe an ideal 90% eventually? We'll see... I am just proud and happy that ELSE is taking such a big jump on MC awareness in less than a couple years.

• Envelope generators ([adsr~]/[asr~]/[envgen~]/[function~]) now have more curve options. For [adsr~]/[asr~] the default is now a new log curve that you can set the curve parameter (and was 'stolen' from SuperCollider). A new [smooth~] family of objects perform the same kind of curved smoothening for alternating inputs - [envgen~] and [function~] also have that but also '1-pole' filtering, 'sine' and 'hann' curves. You can now trigger [adsr~] and [asr~] with impulses.

• The [play.file~] object now supports even more file formats besides MP3 and stuff. Hey, you can even stream the supported formats from weblinks! The [sfload] object (which loads files into arrays) also gained support for more formats and can download from weblinks as well! It also has a new threaded mode, so loading big files won't choke Pd. It now also outputs the file information, which is a way to tell you when loading finished in threaded mode. The [sample~], [player~], [gran.player~] and [pvoc.player~] objects are now also based on [sfload], so they support all these file formats!!! Now [sample~] and [tabplayer~] are integrated in a way that [tabplayer~] is always aware of the sample rate of the file loaded in [sample~] (so it reads in the "correct speed"). A new [sfinfo] object is able to extract looping regions and instrument metadata information from AIFF files (which is something I wanted for ages) - it should do more stuff in the future.

• [knob] has become the ultimate featured bloated creep GUI I always feared and avoided. MAX is envy! but I'm happy with this structure and I want to replicate in other GUIs in the future (yeah, I got plans to offer alternatives to all iemguis). I wanna highlight a new 'param' symbol I added that allows you to remotely set a particular method in an object, so you don't to connect to a "method $1" message and you can even do this wirelessly with a send symbol. [knob] now also acts like a number box, where you can type in the value, which may also be displayed in different ways or the value can be sent elsewhere via another send symbol so you can temper with it using [makefilename] or [else/format]. I've been using this for the MERDA modules and it's really cool.

• We finally have a [popmenu] GUI object! This was in my to do list forever and was crucial to improve the MERDA modules to set waveforms, instruments and whatnot.

• Let's about MERDA, the "Modular Euroracks Dancing Along" subset of abstractions in ELSE. It was first released in the last update and it's been driving lots of the development in ELSE as you can see. I now added a MIDI Learn feature for all knobs that feels great and quite handy! There are many fixes and improvements in general and some new modules. I wanna highlight the new [sfont.m~] module, which loads "sound font" banks and you can just click on a [popmenu] to choose the instrument you want. The default bank has numerous (hundreds) options and also comes with PlugData. The sequencer module [seq8.m~] was rather worthless but it's now a whole new cool thingie. It allows you to set pitches with symbols and even has quarter tone resolution. I added a right outlet to send impulses to trigger envelopes and stuff (there's still more stuff of course, see full changelog below).

• There are newly designed/renamed/recreated [resonbank~]/[resonbank2~] objects that are well suited for Modal Synthesis.

• What actually drives my development is my Live Electronics tutorial, which got a fair upgrade with a new chapter on Modal Synthesis amongst other things, such as new subtractive synthesis examples and a revision of envelope generators with examples on AHDSR and DAHDSR - by the way, there are new gaterelease~/gatedelay~ objects for handling envelopes (and other processes).

• I have to thank some people. Tim added 'zoom' to the [pic] object, as well as an image offset. Tim also implemented a new and better technique for bandlimited oscillators. Ben Wesh gave me a new [scope3d~] GUI object, pretty cool, that plots an oscilloscope in 3 dimensions, which is coded in LUA - and ELSE has been carrying a modified version of [pdlua] because it now depends on it for a couple of GUIs. Tim and Ben made many improvements to [pdlua] (as well as Albert Graef, of course).

• For more new objects, let me also tell you about the simple and cool [float2imp~], that is based on [vline~] and can convert floats to impulses with sample accuracy (don't know why I didn't think of that earlier). A new [tanh~] object has Multichannel support. A bit earlier I made an update to Cyclone that actually "borrows" and includes this one from ELSE instead of its original one (which does not have Multichannel support). PlugData users will load the one from ELSE. This is another tiny step that sort of integrates ELSE and Cyclone, specially for PlugData users.

happy patching.

CHANGELOG:

LIBRARY:

Breaking changes:

• [adsr~]/[asr~]: now a gate off before reaching the sustain point does not start the release right away (this allows you to trigger it with impulses). There's a new mode just for immediate release. There's a new exponential setting for curve factors, the old 'log' mode is renamed to 'lag' as it's the same as used in the [lag~] object. For [adsr~], a bang now is not "retrigger", but an impulse at control rate, there's a new 'retrigger' message for control rate retriggering (and now it only retriggers if the gate is on). For [asr~] a bang now also works like an impulse.
• [sample~]: no more 'load' message, args to 'open' message changed, size is now only in 'ms'.
• [format]: outputs are now always symbols, before you could get float outputs. Also, we just have a simplified symbol output, no more lists or anythings. Hopefully I'll be able to get the 'list' output back, but it involved some bugs that I couldn't fix so I just removed it. You cannot use bangs and lists in secondary inlets no more (this is cylone/max crappy paradigm we don't want here). Bang method was actually removed as well.
• [pack2]: no more support for anythings, also no more support for lists in secondary inlets and output has a list selector (I wanna make this more Pd like and not a silly clone from MAX's [pak], cause fuck MAX).
• [merge]/[unmerge]/[group]: no more '-trim' flag (again, respecting pd's usual list paradigm), in [merge] now there's no more 'hot' argument and a bang now represents an empty list and inlets initialized with empty lists
• [mono]: 1st argument is now 'glide' in ms.
• [sfont~] now uses 'mma' for bank selection (this alters how CC messages set the bank number).
• [player~]/[play.file~]: 'open' message does not play files right away anymore.
• [tabplayer~]/[player~]: play message without args now play at the default settings (whole file at regular speed).
• [envgen~]: removed the 'maxsustain' parameter, use the new [gaterelease~] or [gaterelease] objects instead. Removed the rightmost inlet just to set envelopes, now a list input only sets the envelope and doesn't trigger it. The 'set' message is then removed.
• [envgen~]/[function~]: simplified and got rid of '-exp' flag and message, also deleted 'expl' and 'expi' messages. A new 'curve' and cimpler message sets exponential factors for all or individual segments, and includes more curve formats.
• [knob]: 'esc' key now deactivates the object. The 'ticks' message is renamed to 'steps' and there is a new 'ticks' message that toggles showing ticks on and off. The 'start' message has been renamed to 'arcstart'. The 'outline' message has been renamed to 'square' for better clarity. Design changed a bit to make it like it is in PlugData (they won), so we now fill the whole background color when in 'square mode' and the knob circle has an 85% proportion in this case inside the full 100% square size (so it grows bigger when not in 'square' mode). Now, by default, the GUI is in a new 'loadbang' mode (I don't think this will influence old patches). I'm afraid some old patches might behave really weird since I added a lot of new stuff. I changed the 'load' message behaviour to not update the object (this can arguably be considered a bug fix).
• [wavetable~], [bl.wavetable~] and [wt2d~]: 'set' message now sets frequencies because of the MC support in [wt~] and [wt2d~], while there's a new 'table' method to set the table name.
• [gbman~]/[cusp~] list method is now for MC, old list method is now renamed back to an old 'coeffs' method.
• [f2s~]/[float2sig~] default value is now 10 ms.
• [op] now behaves like [*~] where the smaller list wraps til reaching the size of the longer one.
• [list.seq] does not loop anymore by default.
• [impseq~] list input removed, use the new [float2imp~] object to convert floats to impulses.
• [resonant~] now has 'q' as the default.
• [resonant2~] has been removed.
• [decay2~] has also been removed ([asr~] much better).
• [vcf2~] has been renamed to [resonator2~].
• [resonbank~]/[resonbank2~] have basically been deleted and replaced by new objects with the same name... [resonator~] is based on a new [resonator~] object which is similar to [resonant~] and [resonbank2~] is now based on [resonator2~] (old [vcf2~] instead of [resonant2~] that got deleted). These are well suited objects for Modal Synthesis.
• [oscbank~] now uses a 'partial' list and not a frequency list. The freq input now defaults to '1' and this makes [oscbank2~] completely obsolete.
• [oscbank2~] has been deleted since it became completely obsolete.
• [sfload] load message changed the behaviour a bit.

Enhancements/fixes/other changes:

• [adsr~]: We have now a new mode for immediate release (see breaking changes above, I'm not repeating it). Fixed ADSR signal inputs (it was simply not really working, specially for linear). Fixed status output for MC signals. There's a new curve parameter that allows you to set the curvature.
• [asr~] I actually just made the new [adsr~] code into a new [asr~] code as a simplified version (as it was before)... so it's got the same impromevents/fixes.
• [play.file~]: added support for more file formats and even weblinks for online streaming!
• [sfload]: added an outlet to output information, added threaded mode, added support for more file formats and even weblinks for downloading.
• [sample~], [player~], [gran.player~] and [pvoc.player~] are now also based on [sfload], so they support more file formats!
• [sample~]: improved extension management with [file splitext].
• [sample~] and [tabplayer~] now are automatically integrated in a way that [tabplayer~] is always aware of the sample rate of the file loaded in [sample~], so it automatically adjusts the reading speed if it is different than the one Pd is running with.
• [numbox~]'s number display is not preceded by "~" anymore (that was just kinda stupid to have).
• [format]: fixed issues where empty symbols and symbols with escaped spaces didn't work. Added support '%a' and '%A' type. Added support for an escaped 'space' flag. Improved and added support for length modifiers. Improved syntax check which prevents a crash. Improved documentation.
• [knob]: added new 'param', 'var', 'savestate', 'read only', 'loadbang', "active", "reset" and 'ticks' methods. Added the possibility to type in number values and also modes on how to display these number values, plus new send symbols for 'activity', 'typing', 'tab' and 'enter'. New design more like plugdata. Changed some shortcuts to make it simpler. If you have the yet unreleased Pd 0.56-0 you can also use 'double clicking' in the same way that works in PlugData. Properties were also significantly improved (I'm finally starting to learn how to deal with this tcl/tk thingie). Yup, a lot of shit here...
• [autofade2~]/[autofade2.mc~]: fixed immediate jump up for 0 ramp up.
• [synth~]: fixed polyphony bug.
• [metronome~]: fixed bug with 'set' message.
• [midi2note]: fixed range (octaves 0-8).
• [pulsecount~]: fixed reset count to not output immediately, added bang to reset counter at control rate
• [click]: fixed regression bug where it stopped working.
• [else]: new 'dir' method to output ELSE's binary directory in a new rightmost outlet. The print information also includes the directory.
• [pic]: added zoom capability finally (thanks to tim schoen) and added offset message (also thanks to tim).
• [store]: added 'sort' functionality.
• [scales]: fixed octave number argument. Added functionality to allow octave number as part of the note symbol.
• [mono]: added 'glide' parameter, as in [mono~].
• [pluck~]: fixed list input.
• [rescale]/[rescale~]: added a "reverse log" mode.
• [limit]: added a new second ignore mode.
• [graph~]: added an external source input for plotting the graph and a 'clear' message.
• [canvas.setname]: added a new argument for "abstraction mode" and methods to set name, depth (and mode).
• [midi.learn]: added a new argument for "abstraction mode", fixed 'dirty' message sent to parent.
• [brickwall~]: fixed initialization.
• [list.seq]: added a loop mode and a 2nd outlet to send a bang when the sequence is done.
• [delete]: fixed index for positive numbers.
• [dust~]: added 'list', 'set' and '-mc' flag for managing the already existing Multichannel capabilities.
• Thanks to Tim we have many fixes and a whole new technique for band limited oscillators. Now [bl.saw~], [bl.saw2~], [bl.vsaw~], [bl.square~], [bl.tri~], [bl.imp~] and [bl.imp2~] have been redesigned to implement elliptic blep, which should provide better anti-aliasing.
• [parabolic~] now uses and internal wavetable for more efficiency.
• [resonant~]: added 'bw' resonance mode.
• [lowpass~]/[highpass~]: added 't60' resonance mode.
• [quantizer~]/[quantizer]: added a new mode, which combines floor (for negative) and ceil (for positive) values.
• [crusher~]: now uses the new [quantizer~] mode from above (arguably a breaking change).
• [envgen~]: fixed a bug (actually a misconception) where ramps started one sample earlier. Fixed 0-length lines. Added a possibility to set time in samples instead of ms. Maximum number of lines is now 1024. Added loop mode. Added many curve options (sin/hann/log curve/lag).
• [function~]: Added many curve options (sin/hann/log curve/lag).
• [The out~] family of abstractions now use [bitnormal~] so you won't blow your speakers beyond repair in edge cases.
• [trig.delay~]/[trig.delay2~]: fixed bug where impulse values different than '1' didn't work.
• Added MC support to: [trig.delay~], [trig.delay2~], [gatehold~], [vca.m~], [gain2~], [decay~], [asr~], [envgen~], [function~], [bl.osc~], [bl.saw~], [bl.saw2~], [bl.vsaw~], [bl.square~], [bl.tri~], [bl.imp~], [bl.imp2~], [imp2~], [tri~], [saw~], [saw2~], [vsaw~], [square~], [pulse~], [parabolic~], [gaussian~], [wavetable~], [wt2d~], [randpulse~], [randpulse2~], [stepnoise~], [rampnoise~] [pink~], [gbamn~], [cusp~], [gray~] and [white~].
• Also added MIDI input and soft sync to [imp2~], [tri~], [saw~], [saw2~], [vsaw~], [square~], [pulse~], [gaussian~] and [parabolic~].
• [wavetable~] and [wt2d~] gained args to set xfading.
• Updated pdlua to 0.12.23.
• M.E.R.D.A: Added MIDI-LEARN for all modules (this is only for the knobs). Replaced some number boxes that were attached to knobs by an internal number display mechanism (new feature from knob). Improved interface of [gendyn.m~]. Preset/symbol name fixes to [flanger.m~]. Now we have automatic MIDI mode detection for [plaits.m~] and [pluck.m~] when no signals are connected (still trying to get plaits right, huh? Yup! And bow MIDI input with monophony and trigger mode has been fixed in [plaits.m~]). Added MC support to [vca.m~]. Increased range of [drive.m~] down to 0.1. Changed some objects to include the new [popmenu] GUI. [vco.m~] now uses the new MC functionalities of oscillators and doesn't need to load abstractions into [clone], I hope it makes this more efficient and clean. The [seq8.m~] module was worthless and got a decent upgrade, it's practically a new module. Added new modules (see below). Note that MERDA is still at alpha development phase, much experimental. Expect changes as it evolves.
• 22 new objects: [float2imp~], [lace], [delace], [lace~], [delace~], [gatehold], [gatedelay],[gatedelay~], [gaterelease~], [gaterelease], [popmenu], [scope3d~], [tanh~], [resonator~], [sfinfo], [smooth], [smooth2], [smooth~], [smooth2~], [dbgain~], [level~] plus [crusher.m~], [sfont.m~] and [level.m~] MERDA Modules.

Objects count: total of 573 (319 signal objects [139 of which are MC aware] and 254 control objects)!

• 323 coded objects (210 signal objects / 113 control objects)
• 227 abstractions objects (87 signal objects / 140 control objects)
• 23 MERDA modular abstractions (22 audio / 1 control)

TUTORIAL:

• New examples and revisions to add the new objects, features and breaking changes in ELSE.
• Added the MERDA modules into the examples for reference.
• Revised section on envelopes.
• New subtractive synthesis examples.
• New chapter on Modal Synthesis.
• Total number of examples is now 554! (26 new ones)

@lacuna said:

one more demux, currently I think it is perfect

Nice! Definitely works for my little test patch, so unless there's an exotic testing situation I'm not considering here, I think you nailed it.

And Zexy [mux] of course acts just the same, so no problem here. Nothing wrong with your example.

Well shucks, you're absolutely correct, I hadn't tried this test with zexy/mux but doing so now it does give the same result as my [vmux], including the extra unwanted output on click #1. I suppose this is less of a concern than demux because it seems easier to spot execution order problems earlier in the chain (before being sent to the abstraction), but I think I'll still need to go through my patches to make sure I didn't stupidly misuse [mux] this way in the past.

@oid Thanks for that mux idea as well! As expected, it also behaves the same as my vmux and zexy/mux in my little test patch, so the main lesson I'm taking here is that pre-mux order of operations is particularly important. Your solutions are super slick and inspiring to see; in this case I think I'll go with @lacuna's demux (with the extra layer of spigots) and stick with my simple vmux, mainly just to not have to worry about whether I'm anywhere close to drowning in symbols.

@whale-av said:

@KMETE I cannot find a reference to a cold inlet of a message object in Max....... only https://docs.cycling74.com/max7/refpages/message
If you can post a link that would be useful.

In Pd a list..... like 1 2 3.... is distributed to the inlets of most objects. You can see that in use when you send a message into [line]. Is that what you mean by "connecting outlet of an object to multiple inlets of another object in one go"?
If not then maybe you are looking for a shortcut method for patching....https://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/13471/shortcut-replacing-wires
David.

When using the right inlet of a message in max, the message box kind of behaves like a float module , a verry handy feature and strangely enough not really documented .
https://www.google.com/search?q=max+msp+right+inlet+of+message&rlz=1C1QPHC_nlBE953BE953&oq=max+msp+right+inlet+of+message+&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160.4914j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:58116efb,vid:5gFHaOQwBuE

@whale-av said:

And 32bit floating point has a dynamic range of 1528dB....! ... be careful out there...!...

That's a joke, right?

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say you have binary floating-point samples where the maximum exponent is 4 and you have 2 bits below the point. Then the maximum value is 1.11 * 2^4 = 11100 = 28. If you had all the bits of precision, the maximum would be 31 (the largest integer less than 2^(4+1)). So the maximum quantization error due to the limited precision of the mantissa is 3 = 2 ^ (max exponent - mantissa bits) - 1.

If we increase the maximum exponent to 5, the same holds: max possible value = 111111 = 63, max encodable = 111000, max error = 7.

If we increase the maximum exponent to 127 (max allowed in single precision), and allow 23 bits below the point, then the error is 2 ^ (127 - 23) - 1 = 2 ^ 104 - 1, or on the order of 2 * 10^31.

This is the noise part of signal-to-noise ratio. It's the maximum noise. The overall noise level is the integral of the quantization error function (which is the absolute value of the difference between y and quantized y, where quantized y is a piecewise function) divided by the x range (something like that) and this will be lower than the max.

Of course, if you have an audio signal scaled up to 2^127, then some samples might reach the peak, but many will be lower amplitude, and their quantization error will be lower. So the overall SNR should be higher than the worst case at the top of the range. But quantization error must integrate over the absolute value, so the lower error at small amplitudes does not cancel out the astronomical error at high amplitudes.

Yes, I've seen the articles producing that bogus 1528 dB figure. The mistake they make is to assume that quantization error is equally distributed throughout the range, and that the magnitude of this quantization error is proportional to the smallest representable value. This is a fundamental reasoning error. To understand how to think properly about quantization error, read https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-229.pdf .

I'm quite bothered by this, actually. Some marketing bros use faulty math to claim that "our soundcard can give you 1528 dB dynamic range!!1!1!!" and then this goes to the top of search results, and gets repeated as folklore. But it's nonsense. It needs to be stopped.

hjh

Howdy all,

I just found this and want to respond from my perspective as someone who has spent by now a good amount of time (paid & unpaid) working on the Pure Data source code itself.

I'm just writing for myself and don't speak for Miller or anyone else.

Mac looks good

The antialiasing on macOS is provided by the system and utilized by Tk. It's essentially "free" and you can enable or disable it on the canvas. This is by design as I believe Apple pushed antialiasing at the system level starting with Mac OS X 1.

There are even some platform-specific settings to control the underlying CoreGraphics settings which I think Hans tried but had issues with: https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/blob/master/tcl/apple_events.tcl#L16. As I recall, I actually disabled the font antialiasing as people complained that the canvas fonts on mac were "too fuzzy" while Linux was "nice and crisp."

In addition, the last few versions of Pd have had support for "Retina" high resolution displays enabled and the macOS compositor does a nice job of handling the point to pixel scaling for you, for free, in the background. Again, Tk simply uses the system for this and you can enable/disable via various app bundle plist settings and/or app defaults keys.

This is why the macOS screenshots look so good: antialiasing is on and it's likely the rendering is at double the resolution of the Linux screenshot.

IMO a fair comparison is: normal screen size in Linux vs normal screen size in Mac.

Nope. See above.

It could also just be Apple holding back a bit of the driver code from the open source community to make certain linux/BSD never gets quite as nice as OSX on their hardware, they seem to like to play such games, that one key bit of code that is not free and you must license from them if you want it and they only license it out in high volume and at high cost.

Nah. Apple simply invested in antialiasing via its accelerated compositor when OS X was released. I doubt there are patents or licensing on common antialiasing algorithms which go back to the 60s or even earlier.

tkpath exists, why not use it?

Last I checked, tkpath is long dead. Sure, it has a website and screenshots (uhh Mac OS X 10.2 anyone?) but the latest (and only?) Sourceforge download is dated 2005. I do see a mirror repo on Github but it is archived and the last commit was 5 years ago.

And I did check on this, in fact I spent about a day (unpaid) seeing if I could update the tkpath mac implementation to move away from the ATSU (Apple Type Support) APIs which were not available in 64 bit. In the end, I ran out of energy and stopped as it would be too much work, too many details, and likely to not be maintained reliably by probably anyone.

It makes sense to help out a thriving project but much harder to justify propping something up that is barely active beyond "it still works" on a couple of platforms.

Why aren't the fonts all the same yet?!

I also despise how linux/windows has 'bold' for default

I honestly don't really care about this... but I resisted because I know so many people do and are used to it already. We could clearly and easily make the change but then we have to deal with all the pushback. If you went to the Pd list and got an overwhelming consensus and Miller was fine with it, then ok, that would make sense. As it was, "I think it should be this way because it doesn't make sense to me" was not enough of a carrot for me to personally make and support the change.

Maybe my problem is that I feel a responsibility for making what seems like a quick and easy change to others?

And this view is after having put an in ordinate amount of time just getting (almost) the same font on all platforms, including writing and debugging a custom C Tcl extension just to load arbitrary TTF files on Windows.

Why don't we add abz, 123 to Pd? xyzzy already has it?!

What I've learned is that it's much easier to write new code than it is to maintain it. This is especially true for cross platform projects where you have to figure out platform intricacies and edge cases even when mediated by a common interface like Tk. It's true for any non-native wrapper like QT, WXWidgets, web browsers, etc.

Actually, I am pretty happy that Pd's only core dependencies a Tcl/Tk, PortAudio, and PortMidi as it greatly lowers the amount of vectors for bitrot. That being said, I just spent about 2 hours fixing the help browser for mac after trying Miller's latest 0.52-0test2 build. The end result is 4 lines of code.

For a software community to thrive over the long haul, it needs to attract new users. If new users get turned off by an outdated surface presentation, then it's harder to retain new users.

Yes, this is correct, but first we have to keep the damn thing working at all. I think most people agree with you, including me when I was teaching with Pd.

I've observed, at times, when someone points out a deficiency in Pd, the Pd community's response often downplays, or denies, or gets defensive about the deficiency. (Not always, but often enough for me to mention it.) I'm seeing that trend again here. Pd is all about lines, and the lines don't look good -- and some of the responses are "this is not important" or (oid) "I like the fact that it never changed." That's... thoroughly baffling to me.

I read this as "community" = "active developers." It's true, some people tend to poo poo the same reoccurring ideas but this is largely out of years of hearing discussions and decisions and treatises on the list or the forum or facebook or whatever but nothing more. In the end, code talks, even better, a working technical implementation that is honed with input from people who will most likely end up maintaining it, without probably understanding it completely at first.

This was very hard back on Sourceforge as people had to submit patches(!) to the bug tracker. Thanks to moving development to Github and the improvement of tools and community, I'm happy to see the new engagement over the last 5-10 years. This was one of the pushes for me to help overhaul the build system to make it possible and easy for people to build Pd itself, then they are much more likely to help contribute as opposed to waiting for binary builds and unleashing an unmanageable flood of bug reports and feature requests on the mailing list.

I know it's not going to change anytime soon, because the current options are a/ wait for Tcl/Tk to catch up with modern rendering or b/ burn Pd developer cycles implementing something that Tcl/Tk will(?) eventually implement or c/ rip the guts out of the GUI and rewrite the whole thing using a modern graphics framework like Qt. None of those is good (well, c might be a viable investment in the future -- SuperCollider, around 2010-2011, ripped out the Cocoa GUIs and went to Qt, and the benefits have been massive -- but I know the developer resources aren't there for Pd to dump Tcl/Tk).

A couple of points:

1. Your point (c) already happened... you can use Purr Data (or the new Pd-L2ork etc). The GUI is implemented in Node/Electron/JS (I'm not sure of the details). Is it tracking Pd vanilla releases?... well that's a different issue.

2. As for updating Tk, it's probably not likely to happen as advanced graphics are not their focus. I could be wrong about this.

I agree that updating the GUI itself is the better solution for the long run. I also agree that it's a big undertaking when the current implementation is essentially still working fine after over 20 years, especially since Miller's stated goal was for 50 year project support, ie. pieces composed in the late 90s should work in 2040. This is one reason why we don't just "switch over to QT or Juce so the lines can look like Max." At this point, Pd is aesthetically more Max than Max, at least judging by looking at the original Ircam Max documentation in an archive closet at work.

A way forward: libpd?

I my view, the best way forward is to build upon Jonathan Wilke's work in Purr Data for abstracting the GUI communication. He essentially replaced the raw Tcl commands with abstracted drawing commands such as "draw rectangle here of this color and thickness" or "open this window and put it here."

For those that don't know, "Pd" is actually two processes, similar to SuperCollider, where the "core" manages the audio, patch dsp/msg graph, and most of the canvas interaction event handling (mouse, key). The GUI is a separate process which communicates with the core over a localhost loopback networking connection. The GUI is basically just opening windows, showing settings, and forwarding interaction events to the core. When you open the audio preferences dialog, the core sends the current settings to the GUI, the GUI then sends everything back to the core after you make your changes and close the dialog. The same for working on a patch canvas: your mouse and key events are forwarded to the core, then drawing commands are sent back like "draw object outline here, draw osc~ text here inside. etc."

So basically, the core has almost all of the GUI's logic while the GUI just does the chrome like scroll bars and windows. This means it could be trivial to port the GUI to other toolkits or frameworks as compared to rewriting an overly interconnected monolithic application (trust me, I know...).

Basically, if we take Jonathan's approach, I feel adding a GUI communication abstraction layer to libpd would allow for making custom GUIs much easier. You basically just have to respond to the drawing and windowing commands and forward the input events.

Ideally, then each fork could use the same Pd core internally and implement their own GUIs or platform specific versions such as a pure Cocoa macOS Pd. There is some other re-organization that would be needed in the C core, but we've already ported a number of improvements from extended and Pd-L2ork, so it is indeed possible.

Also note: the libpd C sources are now part of the pure-data repo as of a couple months ago...

Discouraging Initiative?!

But there's a big difference between "we know it's a problem but can't do much about it" vs "it's not a serious problem." The former may invite new developers to take some initiative. The latter discourages initiative. A healthy open source software community should really be careful about the latter.

IMO Pd is healthier now than it has been as long as I've know it (2006). We have so many updates and improvements over every release the last few years, with many contributions by people in this thread. Thank you! THAT is how we make the project sustainable and work toward finding solutions for deep issues and aesthetic issues and usage issues and all of that.

We've managed to integrate a great many changes from Pd-Extended into vanilla and open up/decentralize the externals and in a collaborative manner. For this I am also grateful when I install an external for a project.

At this point, I encourage more people to pitch in. If you work at a university or institution, consider sponsoring some student work on specific issues which volunteering developers could help supervise, organize a Pd conference or developer meetup (this are super useful!), or consider some sort of paid residency or focused project for artists using Pd. A good amount of my own work on Pd and libpd has been sponsored in many of these ways and has helped encourage me to continue.

This is likely to be more positive toward the community as a whole than banging back and forth on the list or the forum. Besides, I'd rather see cool projects made with Pd than keep talking about working on Pd.

That being said, I know everyone here wants to see the project continue and improve and it will. We are still largely opening up the development and figuring how to support/maintain it. As with any such project, this is an ongoing process.

Out

Ok, that was long and rambly and it's way past my bed time.

Good night all.

Hi everyone, I'm excited to announce that Scheme for Pd (aka s4pd) is now code complete for version 0.1 and ready for people to use, though it does still require building from source at the moment. This should "just work" with the Makefile, let me know if not.

Scheme for Pd is an open-source external for live-coding and scripting Pd with an embedded s7 Scheme Lisp interpreter. It is a port of most of Scheme for Max, also by me, for Max/MSP. s7 is an embeddable minimal Scheme implementation by Bill Schottstaedt at CCRMA, with many nice features for algorithmic composition and embedding. It's the Scheme engine used in the Common Music algorithmic composition toolkit and the Snd audio editor, and has keywords, Common Lisp style macros, first-class environments, thread safety, applicative syntax, and a very straight forward FFI (foreign function interface).

Features in beta 0.1:

• run code from files, and hot reload files during playback

• evaluate scheme code from Pd messages live with a REPL

• keeps on playing fine when you go into edit mode

• output numbers, symbols, lists, vectors (as Pd lists)

• basic array i/o

• send messages to named receivers

• schedule functions with delay, using the Pd scheduler

The GitHub project page is here. Please file issues there if you find bugs or the help is unclear. I'm sure there are still some issues!

https://github.com/iainctduncan/scheme-for-pd

If you've not used Scheme before, I've written a crash course for Scheme for Max which should almost all apply here:

https://iainctduncan.github.io/learn-scheme-for-max/introduction.html

There are various videos on the youtube channel demoing things you can do with the Max version, which might be of interest, as they should mostly port over without issue. I will be making Pd specific ones in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6ftX7yuEi5uUFkRVJbJyWA

If you can help with testing and making builds on Windows and Linux, please let me know. I think this version should be ready for a binary release now.

Enjoy,

iain

@60hz said:

So what I see is that pd-vanilla and his minimal gui with computer scientists oriented documentation is not suited for newcomers and artist but purr-data is. So that should make sense that flossmanuals should have a documentation about it.

It makes sense and we're saying Purr Data can have its own Floss manuals, but what are you talking about, a new entry or turning the current Floss Manuals into a Purr Data Manual?

By the way, the point of updating this Floss manuals to Vanilla is to make its documentation and itself more suited for newcomers, the solution to the exact problem you're raising it won't change if we don't do anything about it and if efforts to change it are rejected.

Folks, when I started this thread, I made no mention to Purr Data. Purr Data is something else. I get the confusion, I get the relation, it's not out of purpose to bring this up here, but I want to make things clear.

See, we're talking about a Manual, a so called "Pure Data" manual, which actually mixed the notion of Pd itself and Pd Extended (now dead) and sits around still as a "Pure Data" manual. While Pd itself has also its 'official' manual. That's all very confusing already, right? The point is then to fix this, work on the Pure Data documentation itself (it's all in the original post). Purr Data relates to Pd and Extended but it's a whole different animal. It has different configurations, interface, features and whatnot. More over, it has quite strong incompatibilities that people don't seem to bring up. When you have a so called Pure Data manual talking now about 'Purr Data' actually, things get even more confusing, we're adding more noise.

What's also confusing is the mixed notion of a 'Software Manual' and a 'Tutorial'. These are supposed to be distinct things. And tutorials are free to focus on different things. Floss seems to be a tutorial on how to do some stuff in Pd, not a 'real software manual' at all. Floss also seems to be good to talk about some externals for Pd. Cool... we could update it then and keep it mostly the same. The changes would be minimal. We'd have a good section on how to manage externals in Pd Vanilla theses days. That'd be great, right? How to configure, etc...

If you're saying, "but hey, I think most of the tutorial examples would work on Purr Data, as they already ship the externals we're talking about, cause they were originally based in Extended", fine! Cool! Great, we can see if what we have in the end perfectly suits being just implemented, opened, and used in Purr Data as well. I'm not talking about the configuration part and things like that, just running the patches...

If it's all fine we can just say "hey, the things you see here are also suited if you want to run Purr Data"

How about it?

Note: On the other side, I prefer using pd-ceammc libraries which are organized AND replace all pd-extended and more, so the best would be having Purr Data + ceammc lib and the peace would come back on earth...

They do not, by far, replace "all pd-extended", nope, sorry, not a fact. Where's ceammc's GEM replacement for instance?

And what are you suggesting with "Purr Data + ceammc lib"? A Floss manuals for both?

And are you talking about the ceammc library that you can install directly from vanilla and use it as part of vanilla or the 'Pd-ceammc' fork of Pd, that comes with the ceammc library and some more stuff?

Well... everything I said about "hey what about Purr Data?" applies here. And the fact is that Pd-ceammc, unlike Purr Data, is not a "whole different animal", it's pretty much just another 'race' of Pd. It is 100% compatible to Pd-Vanilla (unlike Purr Data). the changes are minimal. You can, for example, run Deken and install externals in Pd-ceammc.

If you don't want to bother using something else than Vanilla, you can install the ceammc library in Vanilla and just use most of what ceammc offers anyway. It's all compatible.

So any Pure Data Manual, Floss manual, tutorial, will work great for Pd-ceammc. And if we consider the fact that a Manual for Purr is needed (not a tutorial, a 'manual', a 'software manual') since it's just too different. That doesn't hold for Pd-ceammc.

And yeah, when I say Purr Data is highly incompatible, you can't run any of the GUI objects from Pd-ceammc in Purr Data. You can't run other GUIs from other libraries.

In fact, Purr Data doesn't even have all of the GUI externals from extended ported and running. Also, Purr Data misses updates from cyclone. Purr is also not doing a great job keeping up to the latest vanilla changes and has some changes of their own to vanilla things. So, unlike Extended and Vanilla, it's really hard tying them with a knot. Unfortunately, at least to me, the community is divided. There are independent developments. And it's hard to manage this, hence the talk about creating a whole new FLOSS for them if needed.

If Purr Data were in fact a reincarnation of Extended, fine. But that's not quite it. And here's something people don't really seem to be aware is that the best shot to have an updated external library that runs all extended patches is going to be "Vanilla + install externals yourself"

And there's also the fact that there are more libraries than just the extended libraries out there, and you can also get them into Vanilla. Like ceammc, like timbreid, like soundhack, like ELSE, like many many others that are just missing, not compatible or hard to get into Purr.

So, there's a way to have both Pd-ceamm + Purr Data when it comes to the externals - get them all for vanilla!

Sure, you'll miss the interface differences from Purr and maybe I don't know what. But that's it, and it needs to be clear what the choice is, there's also a sacrifice in giving up Vanilla.

The closer PD's user experience gets to Max the more people will expect it to be Max and complain about it not being Max.

That doesn't tend to happen. E.g., [expr] has been a core Pd Vanilla object for some time. It interprets its args as Max-style ints/floats, but (quite rightly) nobody requests adding the int/float difference to the core.

Also, Pd-l2ork and Purr Data have opportunistically pulled improvements from Max when backward compatible. I don't think I've had any complaints about it being insufficiently Max-like.

I did have a user request the strange Max feature of hiding all wires and xlets. But they didn't even complain when I implemented it as GUI preset named "footgun."

JASS, Just Another Synth...Sort-of, codename: Gemini (UPDATED TO V-1.0.1)

jass-v1.0.1( esp with midi fixes).zip

1.0.1-CHANGES:

• Fixed issues with midi routing, re the mode selector (mentioned below)
• Upgraded the midi mode "fetch" abstraction to be less granular
• Fix (for midi) so changing cc["14","15","16"] to "rnd" outputs a random wave (It has always done this for non-midi.)
• Added a midi-mode-tester.pd (connect PD's midi out to PD's midi in to use it)
• Upgrade: cc-56 and cc-58 can now change pbend-cc and mod-cc in all modes
• Update: the (this) readme

INFO: Values setting to 0 on initial cc changes is (given midi) to be expected.

JASS is a clone-based, three wavetable, 16 voice polyphonic, Dual-channel synth.

With...

• The initial, two wavetables combined in 1 of 5 possible ways per channel and then adding those two channels. Example: additive+frequency modulation, phase+pulse-modulation, pulse-modulation+amplitude modulation, fm+fm, etc
• The third wavetable is a ring modulator, embedded inside each mod type
• 8 wave types, including a random with a settable number of partials and a square with a settable dutycycle
• A vcf~ filter embedded inside each modulation type
• The attack-decay-release, cutoff, and resonance ranges settable so they immediately and globally recalculate all relevant values
• Four parameters /mod type: p1,p2, cutoff, and resonance
• State-saving, at both the global level (wavetables, env, etc.), as well as, multiple "substates" of for-each-mod-type settings.
• Distortion, reverb
• Midiin, paying special attention to the use of 8-knob, usb, midi controllers (see below for details)
• zexy-limiters, for each channel, after the distortion, and just before dac~

Instructions

Requires: zexy

for-entire-state

• O: Open preset. "default.txt" is loaded by...default
• S: Save preset (all values incl. the multiple substates) (Note: I have Not included any presets, besides the default with 5 substates.)
• SA: Save as
• TEST: A sample player
• symbol: The filename of the currently loaded preset
• CL: Clear, sets all but a few values to 0
• U: Undo CL
• distortion,reverb,MASTER: operate on the total out, just before the limiter.
• MIDI (Each selection corresponds to a pgmin, 123,124,125,126,127, respectively, see below for more information)
  • X: Default midi config, cc[1,7,8-64] available
  • M: Modulators;cc[10-17] routed to ch1&ch2: p1,p2,cutoff,q controls
  • E: Envelopes; cc[10-17] routed to filter- and amp-env controls
  • R: Ranges; cc[10-17] routed to adr-min/max,cut-off min/max, resonance min/max, distortion, and reverb
  • O: Other; cc[10-17] routed to rngmod controls, 3 wavetypes, and crossfade
  • symbol: you may enter 8 cc#'s here to replace the default [10-17] from above to suit your midi-controller's knob configuration; these settings are saved to file upon entry
• vu: for total out to dac~

for-all-mod-types

• /wavetable
  • graph: of the chosen wavetype
  • part: partials, # of partials to use for the "rn" wavetype; the resulting, random sinesum is saved with the preset
  • duty: dutycycle for the "du" wavetype
  • type: sin | square | triangle | saw | random | duty | pink (pink-noise: a random sinesum with 128 partials, it is not saved with the preset) | noise (a random sinesum with 2051 partials, also not saved)
• filter-env: (self-explanatory)
• amp-env: (self-explanatory)
• rngmod: self-explanatory, except "sign" is to the modulated signal just before going into the vcf~
• adr-range: min,max[0-10000]; changing these values immediately recalculates all values for the filter- and amp-env's scaled to the new range
• R: randomizes all for-all-mod-types values, but excludes wavetype "noise"; rem: you must S or SA the preset to save the results
• U: Undoes R

for-each-mod-type

• mod-type-1: (In all cases, wavetable1 is the carrier and wavetable2 is the modulator); additive | frequency | phase | pulse | amplitude modulation
• mod-type-2: Same as above; mod-type-2 May be the same type as mod-type-1
• crossfade: Between ch1 and ch2
• detune: Applied to the midi pitch going into ch2
• for-each-clone-type controls:
  • p1,p2: (self-explanatory)
  • cutoff, resonance: (self-explanatory)
• navigation: Cycles through the saved substates of for-each-mod-type settings (note: they are lines on the end of a [text])
• CP: Copy the current settings, ie. add a line to the end of the [text] identical to the current substate
• -: Delete the current substate
• R: Randomize all (but only a few) substate settings
• U: Undo R
• cut-rng: min,max[0-20000] As adr-range above, this immediately recalculates all cutoff values
• res-rng: min,max[0-100], same as previously but for q
• pbend: cc,rng: the pitchwheel may be assigned to a control by setting this to a value >7 (see midi table below for possibilities); rng is in midi pitches (+/- the value you enter)
• mod-cc: the mod-wheel may be assigned to a control [7..64] by setting this value

midi-implementation

cc - basic (for all midi-configs)

cc - "X" mode/pgmin=123

cc - Modes M, E, R, O

Jass is designed so that single knobs may be used for multiple purposes without reentering the previous value when you turn the knob, esp. as it pertains to, 8-knob controllers.

Thus, for instance, when in Mode M(pgm=124) your cc send the signals as listed below. When you switch modes, that knob will then change the values for That mode.

In order to do this, you must turn the knob until it hits the previously stored value for that mode-knob.

After hitting that previous value, it will begin to change the current value.

cc - Modes M, E, R, O assignments

Where [10..17] may be the midi cc #'s you enter in the MIDI symbol field (as mentioned above) aligned to your particular midi controller.

In closing

If you have anywhere close to as much fun (using, experimenting with, trying out, etc.) this patch, as I had making it, I will consider it a success.

For while an arduous learning curve (the first synth I ever built), it has been an Enormous pleasure to listen to as I worked on it. Getting better and better sounding at each pass.

Rather, than say to much, I will say this:

Enjoy. May it bring a smile to your face.

Peace through love of creating and sharing.

Sincerely,
Scott