Hi there. My little problem is that i can't choose between buying Max/MSP or diving for free in Pd. So i started to look for comparisons between these two.
As i see in wikipedia Max link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_(software) there is a long list of well known artists (like Aphex Twin, Tim Hecker) who are using it. As for Pd, there is absolutely no information on the web about famous musicians who are working with this software..
So my question is do you know any electronic/electroacoustic artists who are using Pd?
Or maybe in generally Pd is well less professional than Max?
From what i have tried i can say that sound quality is identical, just Max's interface is far more advanced..
Maybe Pd better suited for game music and for creating things like Reactable?
Thanks for answers.

I agree that the Max/MSP tutorials are great, especially for newbies as it's very thorough, though not as comprehensive as Pd's. However, it should be noted that the Max/MSP documentation is a little better suited for those using Pd-extended than vanilla Pd. Much of the objects used in Max/MSP go by different names in vanilla Pd (i.e. MSP's [cycle~] is like Pd's [osc~] or [tabosc~]), if they are there at all (generally, the ones that don't exist can be built as abstractions). Pd-extended, on the other hand, includes clones of most Max/MSP objects, most of which are in the cyclone library. [cycle~] and [play~], for example, are not vanilla Pd objects.

www.pd-tutorial.com and the FLOSS manuals at en.flossmanuals.net/puredata are both very good resources for those getting started with Pd as well.

Anyone have a rough idea for a patch to send and receive integers and floats to+from a lemur and pd (Jazzmutant Lemur). The one I've got functions with Max/MSP, successful results.

If rig specifications help,

The port I chose for the lemur to utilize with Max/MSP was 8000.
It seems the dumpOSC object has issues with the argument 8000. The object won't create. Additionally, though the oscx seems to have loaded, the prepend send object with arguments /box/led also does not manifest itself and the _help-40h.pd patch and OSCplumbing subpatch seem to offer resolutions to using OSC though I don't know exactly the manner. I've replaced their ports with 8000, nothine at all is printing, though the lemur has been operating properly with Max/msP all the while.

For those familiar with Max/MSP, the code to write a patch receiving lemur messages is: (and all below are objects, no messages, no duplications of objects, if listed twice, then it is same object)

"udpreceive 8000" , outlet connected with "zl nth 1" left inlet, "zl nth 1" 's left outlet to "prepend send" inlet. "zl nth 1" 's right outlet, however was connected with "zl reg" 's right inlet. "prend send" 's left outlet connected with "t b s" 's left inlet. "t b s" 's left outlet connected with "zl reg" 's left inlet. "t b s" 's right outlet connected with "forward" 's left inlet, "zl reg" 's left oulet connected with "forward" 's left inlet.

For udpsend, objects look like "/nameoflemurobject.value $1" with left inlet coming from float. left outlet goes to "udpsend (then ip adress) (then port number)"

With a request of any more information, I'll reply. If anything else comes to mind, I'll submit asap. If you desire patcher files for the above listed code, i'll attach it immediately. Ok.

Puredata is free open source software, Max costs money.

Puredata is more flexible and extensive than Max because it is maintained and
supported by a community who use it.

There are more freely available examples, patches, tutorials and documentation for Puredata than Max.

Max data can be imported into Puredata with Cyclone, but afaik the converse is not possible.

In many cases Max MSP has prettier GUI components, but depending on your point of view these can also be seen as fluff and cruft.

I consider Pd the "grown ups version of Max"

Since I don't use Max because I can't afford it (Cycling74 refused to offer me a complementary version in return for writing them tutorials) there may be advantages to Max I have no idea about.

The downside is what is typical of most free software, installation and configuration is more difficult.

So basically if you are prepared to do a little thinking and don't need a shrink wrapped spoon feed, it does more than Max, better, for free.

I did some work with MAX at CNMAT and on my own a very long time ago, but since then I've led a MAX-free existence - don't know how that happened. Anyway, I finally have the opportunity to get back into it, so I just started to catch up and see how things have developed since I left. Holy cats - they certainly have changed. The fact that I'm on this forum shows you a bit about where my click trail has taken me.

Ok, so I have the opportunity to retool and almost start from scratch, and I'm faced with general questions about the ideal OS / software to commit to. I'm aware that questions like these can be inflammatory, so I'll give a bit more info and justification for being so general.

I'm primarily a Mac OS X dude, although in my main profession as web developer, I use all OpenBSD servers. For one particular project, I may be moving to Linux because of its clustering possibilities. But at home, I do all my work on my G5.

My training, such as it is, is in composition - with pen & paper even. But I'm eager to expand my toolset with various computer-assisted techniques, and I intend to develop my own, not just use what's out there, so programming is going to be a big part of my plans.

My immediate inclination was just to lay down the $495 for MAX/MSP (my copy is so old I don't think I can even upgrade). Maybe add jitter too - looks insanely cool. But then I clicked on a link to a company that does cycling74-based work, and followed a link to Pure Data. And things really opened up from there.

So it looks to me as if there's a bit of a conflict here...

• If go with what's semi-familiar and go with MAX on my Mac, I immediately also get an IRCAM Forum Pass. Quite a bit of $, but a lot of bang. Good support. Established community.

• But then there's Pd, which is open-source - that's a HUGE plus in my book, not just because it's free, and it'll run on my Mac...

• ...but from what I can tell, a lot of the most interesting development in this field would appear to be taking place on the Linux platform, AGNULA, dyne:bolic, etc.

So that's my question. MAX vs. Pd, OS X vs. Linux, and the natural combinations. Will Pd be a practical alternative to MAX/MSP, with its established user base and support, or even an improvement? Am I shortchanging myself with Pd on OS X? Might it be worth taking the plunge into Linux? I'll be interested to hear all advice and experiences.

Thanks...
Alex

_I see there is a pop-up menu in the file open dialog that lets you select Max files instead of Pd files. I try this and loading the patch produces no errors, but neither does it open a window (it displays nothing at all). _

I've never used cyclone, but...

Quoting from the Pd list:

_*File->Open is obsolete* for loading max patches. Instead, create
a [cyclone] object and click on it. It should load max-text,
max-binary, and even the max-old format (which max itself does not
load anymore...) _

Another message suggest that you can switch cyclone between normal mode and max compatability mode using messages, although I didn't find out how.

> Instituto Nacional de las Artes Escénicas y la Música
> MINISTERIO DE EDUCACIÓN, CULTURA Y DEPORTE
> Centro para la Difusión de la Música Contemporánea
>
> Curso:Introducción a la Creación de Aplicaciones Musicales con PD/MAX por
> Juan Andrés Beato y Gregorio García Karman
>
>
> 7 - 11 Marzo 2005
> teoría: 16.00 a 19.00 horas
> prácticas: del 8 al 11 de Marzo, de 11.00 a15.00 horas en grupos de 2
> alumnos (solo alumnos activos)
>
> lugar:
> LIEM-CDMC
> Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía, 5ª planta
> c) Santa Isabel 52, 28012 Madrid
>
>
> Pure Data (PD) es un entorno de programación gráfica para aplicaciones
> musicales que funciona bajo Windows, OSX, Linux e Irix. Desarrollado por
> Miller Puckette y de distribución libre y código abierto, constituye junto
> con MAX/MSP uno de los modelos de software musical de más impacto y
> difusión en la actualidad. La programación se realiza interconectando
> objetos gráficos, que representan instrucciones, en un entorno
> fuertemente desestructurado y optimizado para el procesado de audio y
> vídeo en tiempo real. Su objetivo es ofrecer al músico una herramienta
> intuitiva y versátil: se utiliza para crear instrumentos virtuales o
> emular el funcionamiento de equipos hardware, realizar composiciones de
> música electrónica en vivo, en instalaciones, conciertos en red y jams
> on-line. Su flexibilidad para tratar MIDI, audio, vídeo y 3D en un paquete
> integrado y con múltiples posibilidades de control, hace que encuentre
> también un número creciente de aplicaciones en el ámbito de los
> multimedia, la performance, VJing..., así como en la enseñanza, en la
> ingeniería de sonido y la musicología (arqueología electroacústica). El
> objetivo del curso es dar a conocer la filosofía y los fundamentos de
> programación de los entornos basados en el "paradigma MAX", ilustrados a
> través de ejemplos realizados en Pure Data así como de aplicaciones reales
> ya desarrolladas.
> Se tratarán los conocimientos necesarios para poder dar primeros pasos en
> este entorno, así como para que el alumno pueda desenvolverse
> posteriormente utilizándolo para la creación de aplicaciones musicales
> propias. A lo largo del curso, se realizará un repaso de los diferentes
> elementos de PD demostrando su funcionamiento junto con conceptos
> básicos del programa (orden, encapsulamiento...). Se presentarán las
> principales familas de objetos estudiando ejemplos implementados en PD de
> técnicas 'en vivo' de síntesis, control algorítmico, manipulación de
> muestras y procesado, afines a la música electroacústica. De manera
> destacada, se tratarán aspectos particulares de PD como las data
> structures, una herramienta específica de este entorno para el
> almacenamiento y visualización de datos que permite el control de PD desde
> partituras gráficas diseñadas por el usuario. También se realizará un
> repaso de los externals y librerías más relevantes utilizadas en la
> programación de aplicaciones musicales (objetos de análisis,
> comunicación, espacialización, streaming...), señalando algunos aspectos
> comunes y divergentes entre PD y su contrapartida comercial MAX. Desde una
> perspectiva más general, se tratarán cuestiones propias de los sistemas
> musicales en tiempo real como el acondicionamiento de datos de control o
> el mapping y se presentarán diferentes estrategias de control sonoro
> empleadas en la creación de aplicaciones musicales, analizando ejemplos de
> piezas realizadas con PD y MAX.
>
> Dirigido a:
> Compositores, intérpretes musicales, musicólogos, artistas sonoros,
> músicos en general tanto profesionales como estudiantes.
>
> Inscripción
> Número de plazas: 8 alumnos activos (serán seleccionados por currículum)
>
> 22 alumnos oyentes
>
> Precio de matrícula: 45 euros. Descuento del 50% a estudiantes que lo
> acrediten
> Para inscribirse envíen una carta de solicitud con su nombre, dirección,
> teléfono, correo electrónico y/o fax indicando su intención de optar a
> "alumno activo" o no, y su currículum especificando experiencia en los
> campos que cubre el curso
> Envíen por correo ordinario, electrónico o fax a:
> "Curso Introducción a la Creación de Aplicaciones Musicales con PD/MAX "
>
> LIEM-CDMC
> (Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía)
> c) Santa Isabel 52 , 28012 Madrid, ESPAÑA
> tel: (+34) 91 774 1072, (+34) 91 774 1073; fax: (+34) 91 774 1075
> cdmc@inaem.mcu.es [url=http://cdmc.mcu.es ]http://cdmc.mcu.es
>
> El plazo de inscripción se cerrará el primer día de clase. No obstante el
> 24 de febrero se comunicará a los asistentes su admisión como alumno
> activo u oyente.
> El pago de matrícula deberán realizarlo después de que les hayamos
> confirmado la admisión, y el primer día de clase deberán entregarnos el
> justificante del pago.
> Ingresar el importe en cualquier oficina del BBVA, a nombre del
> Instituto Nacional de las Artes Escénicas y de la Música, en la cuenta
> siguiente:
> Entidad: 0182 Sucursal: 2370 Dígito de control: 40 c/c:
> 0200201218
> Al término del curso, los alumnos recibirán un diploma acreditativo de
> asistencia.
> Cualquier información que se precise sobre estos cursos o las diversas
> actividades del CDMC, puede solicitarse en la dirección indicada
> anteriormente.
>

Doesn't work:

../onoff/switch bo
... couldn't create
../onoff/switch po
... couldn't create
../onoff/switch jo
... couldn't create
../onoff/switch so
... couldn't create
../onoff/switch mo
... couldn't create
mix 19 0 12 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 19 1 13 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 20 0 12 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 20 1 13 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 21 0 12 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 21 1 13 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 22 0 12 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 22 1 13 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 23 0 33 1 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 24 0 33 0 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 25 0 19 0 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 26 0 19 1 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 27 0 20 0 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 28 0 20 1 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 29 0 21 0 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 30 0 21 1 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 31 0 22 0 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 32 0 22 1 (*~->text) connection failed
mix 33 0 12 0 (text->hip~) connection failed
mix 33 1 13 0 (text->hip~) connection failed