@ddw_music Okay, I made the changes but not getting anything back. It looks like pd likes the formatting...I'm not getting any errors. I'm guessing that the X32 isn't replying on the same port we're sending to (with pd), but that's also an assumption. Somehow the livetoolkit software can just display the whole reply. I've read through that OSC doc- it's linked in the original post. I'm not sure if wireshark would help? I'm guessing that if it is on a different port, the return port changes, which would be a hassle... But yeah, the livetoolkit software somehow works great.
In this screenshot, I added the [print packet] since nothing was printing. It looks like nothing from [print reassembled] is printing... The messages in the console are from clicking the messages at the top, sequentially.

In this screenshot, I toggled the mute (with the X32 software that controls the board) and sent the same message, getting a reply that indicates the change I made. So that works.... The send message has no 'value' type, but choosing 'string' works as well as 'no value'.

I had a thought last evening... What if I made a physical button connected to the Pi, that basically mutes channels 1-4 on the board, and also resets the 4 mute toggles in the software? Or even better, automatically did that once per day around 1am or something... I think it would achieve the same effect.

My old coworker was able to query the X32 for channels 1-4 fader values using a python script.. It might be worth looking at that again. It basically turns on a speaker in the studio whenever channels 1-4 are muted so the people in there can hear the 'program' audio, aka, hear what's playing when they aren't talking. I think it uses the /subscribe command but... Not sure. I'm just not much of a python guy, but some of the OSC commands/formatting might glean some information.

@whale-av, "It seems that on/off (enum) and 1/0 (integer) are interchangeable, but it is not clear (yet...!) whether they are part of the message header or data following the header.", yes... I think it's at the end? Not 100% on that. These parts from the OSC x32 doc might help... Whenever I try to send pd messages with tilda's I get errors though.

Thanks for the help .. I'll try to dig up that python script. It works with 2 X32's 24/7 on a single pi and only needs reboots a couple times a year. It would be cool to get this going with pd since I think it's possible...

Hi, so I'm somewhat new to PD and I'm trying to make a sequencer for the Befaco Lich. I'm adapting the sequencer used in this video:

What I want is to simply have two sequencers with pre-made sequences that I write in PD, and turning a value knob to switch between the sequences.

I've actually gotten somewhat far but a problem I can't seem to solve is a way to prevent a number box from refreshing my toggles whenever there is any activity, even if the int it's feeding into doesn't change. This is what happens (basically toggle/bang flutters on and off instead of stays at its value for its current position)

I've really gotten stumped here, but once I'm able to switch between patterns in the sequencer then I think I can make the rest. One other thing was for the outputting triggers - when an active step emits a bang, that bang needs to send a burst of CV out the Lich's gate output to make a trigger. Would a burst of white noise work? I realize I have to route it to the hardware but I'm confused what kind of signal I should be making. Thanks for any help that can be provided.

@the.sasa Like this?
iits-help.pd
iits.pd

List dripping in one form or another tends to be the solution when you have to deal with both a stream and a list, Sticking a [change] between the [t f f] and [get $1( would make this more efficient, will update it later.

Edit: Added the [change] and tweaked the get message so it will play well with older versions of pd.

I have been working on a randomized music patch using instrument samples played randomly with occasional key changes, and with an evolutive tempo. If I enjoy a lot the complete randomness of the sound, I want now to try to implement some rules in the chaos. Specifically I would like to track specific sequences of notes, and have a specific motif playing if that sequence happens.

In my patch each note is played by one specific sample affiliated to a number, and it is output if the number box controlled by a random object outputs this number.

Is there a way to track a specific sequence of numbers output by this number box? I would then condition a trigger if that sequence happens and the trigger would start a specific musical motif.
The number box has its value constantly changing, and I would like to have a trigger that would be banged if the number box does a sequence of like 23, then 18, then 7.

I'm new on this forum, and fairly new at Pd as well, I hope I make myself clear !

Is Perfection Important?
Exploring the Sound through the Fibonacci Sequence

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Music and Data Convergence: A Call for Creators

The intersection of music and data offers a realm of boundless possibilities. Both fields rely on precise symbols to convey information, creating a parallel between musical notes and data records. Just as performers and listeners immerse themselves in the musical experience, data enthusiasts observe and record the ever-evolving world of information. In this context, stages and instruments become the equivalent of facts and observations, bridging the gap between music and data.

While music and data aren't identical systems, music can be seen as a unique way to represent data. It's not just about recording and playing notes; it's about reimagining music from a data perspective. Our goal is to unlock infinite possibilities, sparking creativity at the intersection of data and music.

Open Call: Crafting Perfection with the Fibonacci Sequence

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I invite artists, musicians, and visionaries of all levels to explore the potential of this sequence in crafting perfect sound art. Use the data series that represents perfection to create works of sonic wonder.

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Hey all,

I am integrating a Pd patch with an existing sequencer/looper (Seq192) with an OSC interface, where my patch should convert my MIDI controller's button presses to OSC commands and send back MIDI signal out to lighten the controller's LEDs.
I can retrieve periodically the status and details of all clips/sequences and aggregate it into a list of parameters for each sequence. The LED colors and the actions that the next button press will trigger depend on these parameters, so I need to store them for reuse, which I like doing with [text] objects. I am then handling buttons' light status in a [clone 90] (where each instance of the clone handles one button).

This should be running on a fairly low-end laptop, so I'm wondering which of these approaches is the most CPU-efficient - if there is any significant difference at all - and I couldn't come up with a way to properly measure the performance difference:

1. one [text define $1-seq-status] object in each clone, with one single line in each. I compare the new sequence status input with [text get $1-seq-status 0] so that I update only line 0 with [text set $1-seq-status] when I know that the content has changed.
2. one single [text define all-seq-status] object with 91 lines. I compare the new sequence status with

[ <button number> (
|
[text search all-seq-status 0]
|
[sel -1]
       |
       [text get all-seq-status]

and if it has changed, I update a button's line with

[ <new status content> (
|
|      [ <line number> (
|      |
[text set all-seq-status]

The order in which buttons/sequence statuses are listed in the file might change, so I can't really avoid searching at least once per button to update.

3. Should I instead uses simple lists in each clone instance? As far as I could test, getting a value from a list was a bit slower than getting a value from a text, but searching in a text was much slower than both. But I don't know the impact of processing 91 lists or text at the same time...

TL;DR: Is it more efficient to [text search], [text get] and [text set] 91 times in one [text] object, or to [text get] and [text set] 1 time in each of 91 [text] objects? or in 91 [list] objects?

Since you've gone through this long post and I gave a lot of context, I am of course very open to suggestions to do this in a completely different way :D
Thanks!

@seb-harmonik.ar said:

The rationale is that the behavior of a patch SHOULD be completely reproducible if desired (and that's the intent).

@jameslo said:

How could you reproduce them (in order to study them) if the pseudo-random number sequence wasn't deterministic?

There might be exceptions, but in every pseudorandom number generator I've ever heard of, the sequence does repeat, provided that it's been seeded with a consistent value first.

SuperCollider seeds the random number generator at startup based on some value calculated from the system time. If you want replicable behavior, you do thisThread.randSeed = /* some value explicitly under your control */ at the moment of your choosing.

Pd [random] does implement a "seed xxx" message, so it isn't correct to suggest that Pd's constant initial seed is the way to get a replicable sequence. That's lucky if that's what you want, but it isn't necessary, and it may not be ideal either.

The problem with the counterargument here is that the [random] behavior depends on factors outside the user's direct control. If you really want a replicable sequence, the way to be certain of that is to send a "seed xxx" message to the random number generator at a moment that is under your control. Otherwise, you have no control over other components that might be pinging the random number generator. (Suppose, for instance, your patch depends on an abstraction which pings a [random] from a [loadbang]. Then, later, the abstraction author thinks, no, I shouldn't do that, I should get that first random value only on demand. Then you move your patch to another machine, re-download the abstraction from its source, and bang the behavior is different.) edit: that's a bad example, never mind.

Viewed from that perspective, one could say that the current Pd behavior misled the OP to believe that it wouldn't be necessary or desirable to control the seed... and then something changed somewhere in the system. That's actually quite a bad situation -- OP relied on happenstance for a mission-critical sequence of notes, and it isn't clear how to recover the original behavior.

Now this part is interesting, from whale-av: "There seems to be a shift......... the 2nd 3rd 4th etc. created are the same as the 1st 2nd 3rd etc. used to be." One possible explanation could be that, in the old version, something was consuming one random value before the user patch did (so the user patch never saw the true first value) -- so in the old system, the "first" random value would have been the second to be generated. Then, in the later case, the first value to be seen is the real first value. (But that might be -- or, is probably -- something in the test scenario and not in Pd itself.)

hjh

@atux @jameslo The error in the console is my fault.. in my post above.
I forgot that I had always used the curve number (ID) to route to a specific abstraction before the [unpack s f f f f f f]...... I think.... it was a long time ago...!

So after a [route curve/] the unpack should in fact be [unpack f s f f f f f f]

The message is.....
curve ID groupID x y z time y-position z-position

symbol "curve"
float curve number (ID)
symbol (group ID)
float (cursor) collision value X
float collision value Y
float collision value Z
float (time) collision X position
float collision Y position
float collision Z position

.... the "positions" are on the iannix graph..... so maybe for visuals.... and I think scalable.... see the inspector ... infos (not a typo)..... messages tab.
.... I assume that unless a group name has been assigned to a bunch of curves the groupID will be an empty symbol and so it doesn't print.
You can get [rawprint] from the "zexy" library and that might well reveal it.

The simplest way to differentiate between the two curves will be to make the bottom or top branch a new curve with a new ID...... say start and bottom branch id1 --- top branch id2
then you can
[route /curve]
|
[route 1 2]
with a couple of [unpack s f f f f f f]'s on the outlets as the ID has been removed from the list.
Then replicate your audio generating patch on the second outlet.

David.

Ganymede.7z (includes its own limited set of samples)

Background:

Ganymede was created to test a bet I made with myself:

that I could boil down drum sequencing to a single knob (i.e. instead of writing a pattern).

As far as I am concerned, I won the bet.

The trick is...

Instead of using a knob to turn, for example, up or down a metro, you use it to turn up or down the modulus of a counter, ie. counter[1..16]>[mod X]>[sel 0]>play the sample. If you do this then add an offset control, then where the beat occurs changes in Real-Time.

But you'll have to decide for yourself whether I won the bet. .

(note: I have posted a few demos using it in various stages of its' carnation recently in the Output section of the Forum and intend to share a few more, now that I have posted this.)

Remember, Ganymede is an instrument, i.e. Not an editor.

It is intended to be "played" or...allowed to play by itself.

(aside: specifically designed to be played with an 8-channel, usb, midi, mixer controller and mouse, for instance an Akai Midimix or Novation LaunchPad XL.)

So it does Not save patterns nor do you "write" patterns.

Instead, you can play it and save the audio~ output to a wave file (for use later as a loop, song, etc.)

Jumping straight to The Chase...

How to use it:

REQUIRES:
moonlib, zexy, list-abs, hcs, cyclone, tof, freeverb~ and iemlib

THE 7 SECTIONS:

• GLOBAL:
  • to set parameters for all 8 tracks, exs. pick the samples directory from a tof/pmenu or OPEN_IND_DIR (open an independent directory) (see below "Samples"for more detail)
  • randomizing parameters, random all. randomize all every 10*seconds, maximum number of bars when randomizing bars, CLR the randomizer check boxes
  • PLAY, L(imited) or I(nfinite) counter, if L then number of bars to play before resetting counter, bpm(menu)
  • MSTVOL
  • transport/recording (on REC files are automatically saved to ./ganymede/recordings with datestamp filename, the output is zexy limited to 98 and the volume controls the boost into the limiter)

• PLAYHEADS:
  • indicating where the track is "beating"
  • blank=no beat and black-to-red where redder implies greater env~ rms

• MODULAE:
  • for information only to show the relative values of the selected modulators

• WEIGHTS:
  • sent to [list-wrandom] when randomizing the When, Accent, and Offset modulators
  • to use click READ_ARRAYS, adjust as desired, click WRITE, uncheck READ ARRAYS
  • EVEN=unweighted, RND for random, and 0-7 for preset shapes

• PRESETS:
  • ...self explanatory

• PER TRACK ACCORDION:

  • 8 sections, 1 per track
  • each open-closable with the left most bang/track
  • opening one track closes the previously opened track
  • includes main (always shown)
    • with knobs for the sample (with 300ms debounce)
    • knobs for the modulators (When, Accent, and Offset) [1..16]
    • toggles if you want that parameter to be randomized after X bars
  • and when opened, 5 optional effects
    • adsr, vcf, delayfb, distortion, and reverb
    • D-W=dry-wet
    • 2 parameters per effect

• ALL:
  when ON. sets the values for all of the tracks to the same value; reverts to the original values when turned OFF

MIDI:

CC 7=MASTER VOLUME

The other controls exposed to midi are the first four knobs of the accordion/main-gui. In other words, the Sample, When, Accent, and Offset knobs of each track. And the MUTE and SOLO of each track.

Control is based on a midimap file (./midimaps/midimap-default.txt).

So if it is easier to just edit that file to your controller, then just make a backup of it and edit as you need. In other words, midi-learn and changing midimap files is not supported.

The default midimap is:

By track

CCs

---TRACK---	---SAMPLE---	---WHEN---	---ACCENT---	--- OFFSET---
0	16	17	18	19
1	20	21	22	23
2	24	25	26	27
3	28	29	30	31
4	46	47	48	49
5	50	51	52	53
6	54	55	56	57
7	58	59	60	61

NOTEs

---TRACK---	---MUTE---	---SOLO---
0	1	3
1	4	6
2	7	9
3	10	12
4	13	15
5	16	18
6	19	21
7	22	24

SAMPLES:

Ganymede looks for samples in its ./samples directory by subdirectory.

It generates a tof/pmenu from the directories in ./samples.

Once a directory is selected, it then searches for ./**/.wav (wavs within 1-deep subdirectories) and then ./*.wav (wavs within that main "kit" directory).

I have uploaded my collection of samples (that I gathered from https://archive.org/details/old-school-sample-cds-collection-01, Attribution-Non Commercial-Share Alike 4.0 International Creative Commons License, 90's Old School Sample CDs Collection by CyberYoukai) to the following link on my Google Drive:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SQmrLqhACOXXSmaEf0Iz-PiO7kTkYzO0/view?usp=sharing

It is a large 617 Mb .7z file, including two directories: by-instrument with 141 instruments and by-kit with 135 kits. The file names and directory structure have all been laid out according to Ganymede's needs, ex. no spaces, etc.

My suggestion to you is unpack the file into your Path so they are also available for all of your other patches.

MAKING KITS:

I found Kits are best made by adding directories in a "custom-kits" folder to your sampls directory and just adding files, but most especially shortcuts/symlinks to all the files or directories you want to include in the kit into that folder, ex. in a "bongs&congs" folder add shortcuts to those instument folders. Then, create a symnlink to "bongs&congs" in your ganymede/samples directory.

Note: if you want to experiment with kits on-the-fly (while the patch is on) just remember to click the REFRESH bang to get a new tof/pmenu of available kits from your latest ./samples directory.

If you want more freedom than a dynamic menu, you can use the OPEN_IND(depedent)_DIR bang to open any folder. But do bear in mind, Ganymede may not see all the wavs in that folder.

---

AFTERWARD/NOTES

• the [hcs/folder_list] [tof/pmenu] can only hold (the first) 64 directories in the ./samples directory

• the use of 1/16th notes (counter-interval) is completely arbitrary. However, that value (in the [pd global_metro] subpatch...at the noted hradio) is exposed and I will probably incorporate being able to change it in a future version)

• rem: one of the beauties of this technique is: If you don't like the beat,rhythm, etc., you need only click ALL to get an entirely new beat or any of the other randomizers to re-randomize it OR let if do that by itself on AUTO until you like it, then just take it off AUTO.

• One fun thing to do, is let it morph, with some set of toggles and bars selected, and just keep an ear out for the Really choice ones and record those or step in to "play" it, i.e. tweak the effects and parameters. It throws...rolls...a lot of them.

• Another thing to play around with is the notion of Limited (bumpy) or Infinite(flat) sequences in conjunction with the number of bars. Since when and where the modulator triggers is contegent on when it resets.

• Designed, as I said before, to be played, esp. once it gets rolling, it allows you to focus on the production (instead of writing beats) by controlling the ALL and Individual effects and parameters.

• Note: if you really like the beat Don't forget to turn off the randomizers. CLEAR for instance works well. However you can't get the back the toggle values after they're cleared. (possible feature in next version)

• The default.txt preset loads on loadbang. So if you want to save your state, then just click PRESETS>SAVE.

• [folder_list] throws error messages if it can't find things, ex. when you're not using subdirectories in your kit. No need to worry about it. It just does that.

---

POSTSCRIPT

If you need any help, more explanation, advise, or have opinions or insight as to how I can make it better, I would love to hear from you.

I think that's >=95% of what I need to tell you.

If I think of anything else, I'll add it below.

Peace thru Music.
Love thru Pure Data.

-s
,

Folks, we're on a roll debating all things related to Pd documentation here and there and I'm now focusing on the Pd FLOSS Manuals issue.

Pd has this very famous and long lasting FLOSS Manual. It's old and it tells you how to instal Pd Extended 0.39! So, it's from the extended era and still references to 'extended objects'. For what I see, it was a Manual that came to be in the Extended era as a Manual to it. Back in the day we basically all used just Extended anyway and were mostly oblivious to Pd Vanilla and its manual.

And by Pd's manual, I mean http://msp.ucsd.edu/Pd_documentation/index.htm - I know that's called 'Pd Documentation', and that it is confusing, cause it actually is an 'html Manual' and it refers to itself as "this html manual". Anyway, this is also something I brought up on github and is not the issue here..  
The point is that there's a conflict and I guess this made sense then, but it's a problem nowadays. A documentation noise problem. Lots of people seem to get to it and consider it "the manual for Pd". We're still struggling with a post Pd Extended issue and what was consolidated in its era but now sits as ruins. Actually, Pd Vanilla's manual also refers to FLOSS Manuals. But these days we have something weird, which is simply the fact that Pure Data has these two manuals. One is the official one, included as part of Pd Vanilla and its documentation, and this other one, which is terribly outdated and actually refers to this unsupported and abandoned fork of Pd.

But the point is, one software cannot have two concurring Manuals, even if both are up to date - that'd be silly. The point of FLOSS is to provide the one and only official and single Manual for a piece of software. See the problem? Csound uses FLOSS Manuals as a place to provide its official manual. It's clearly linked in csound.com. Csound also has the 'Canonical Csound reference manual', which is actually something else and not to be confused with "The" manual they provide in FLOSS.

So, my point is we have to get rid of one of them and have a single official one.

Should we then remove the included and official manual from Pd and 'move it' to FLOSS and completely overhaul that online version?

Or just get rid of the FLOSS version? Well, that is there, and people know it. Burn it down, purge and disappear with it would be bad.

Well, I don't know, so I'm asking...

Another scenario is that FLOSS can still be around, of course, but as a museum piece, for those interested in web archeology, as extended is now an archeological piece of software. No one touches it, it stays there, but we try to make it clear how that is an old, outdated, unofficial and that Pd has its own 'real manual. This would help a lot. Or... also, treat it for what it is, a manual reference for Pd Extended, not Vanilla, and make it clear how Pd Extended is abandoned and so is this manual.

Other than these, the only option I see is we maintain and update these two manuals somehow. And I already said how I think that's pointless. I also don't know who'd do that... but maybe there'd be a way to manage them as two clearly distinct guides. One would be the 'Canonical Vanilla Manual' and the other could be 'The Pure Data Manual' (or some other name)? The question would be, why to do that? What is the advantage in keeping another FLOSS version around?

The thing I can think people like about the FLOSS version is:

• A: A friendlier look for beginners;
• B: A nice beginner level tutorial;
• C: Support for many externals, external libraries, how to use Arduino and stuff (more as a tutorial than a 'manual');

These can all be compensated. With 'A)', we can try and make the Pd manual look nicer maybe? As for the rest, what really seems to be the substance of this is the fact that it serves as a tutorial.

Well, a tutorial is not necessarily a "Manual".

We can add tutorials to Vanilla too... actually, even though it's based on Extended, many of the examples there are 'vanilla', so they can be easily ported and shipped as part of Vanilla!

As for tutorials that use externals. Well, they would really benefit from an update. But a tutorial is a tutorial, this could live somewhere else.

By the way, tutorials can easily be uploaded to deken and be available from there. You'd have a tutorial that relies on externals, but that's ok too (my live electronics tutorial comes as part of the ELSE download)... just give instructions in the tutorial on how to install the needed libraries from deken as well...

But if the case is made that we should really keep FLOSS and update it. Well, maybe we could manage and do that, taking care on how to not overlap even know I don't know who'd do it, but it'd mean completely rewrite from scratch and get rid of some of the stuff. That's bad too, as the old version would be lost (so have it sit as an 'old extended manual'?).

So, in short, possible scenarios include:

1. Forget about floss, tell it's outdated (rename it to pd extended manual maybe), focus on Vanilla's manual. Bring stuff we miss and like from FLOSS to current Pd in some new form.
2. 'Move' Pd's manual to a new FLOSS incarnation
3. Keep and manage two versions

My thoughts on these are here, and I think the best scenario is number "1)"

Any other thoughts?

Cheers