@whale-av I did grab my old mac intel and was using the extended help file on vanilla anyway

Well, I just corrected the help file in here https://github.com/pure-data/pure-data/pull/2486/commits/7aa06f5416c7310592da1e765e4f370e76cd7cb2

I think it settles it

thank you for all your hard work..

you're welcome

Anyway, reading the Extended version documentation didn't make things well clear to me and now that I am studying about the function it just seems misleading. It gives more information than it should and does so in a confusing way. It would be better phrased if it explained that the positive values from 0 to pi represent a counterclockwise angle and that negative values from 0 to -pi represent a clockwise angle... : )

Anyway, I checked the old way that the Pd documentation was and I didn't mess this one up, I kept the phrasing as it was originally written. And I agree it is misleading and how it doesn't explain that the Y value should come in the left inlet. I was myself thrown away by this lack of clarity and wrote the references just wrong. Sorry I suck at math

I will now correct the help file and make things clearer, but I think that just mentioning the right order of coordinates is sufficient, we don't need to try and add more complicated explanations.

@lacuna said:

Also IEM has list of Vanilla objects page online:
https://pd.iem.sh/objects/

This is still "bad", meaning not "official" and not yet complete/up to date. There is an idea in pddp to add such an official online resource, but we need help. It's on my list to do it but it's not a priority and I may never do it

In any case, I don't think the help file should be a place to teach math for those who don't know it. I also don't see a reason why to show a more complicated patch (wether it works or not) that shows how to implement an object. This is also not a job for the help file... it must simply just reasonably explain what the object does... how it works and operates...

but yeah, I know little, but I also seem to remember [atan2] was actually necessary and not able to be built in another way... I remembered some results could not match depending if they were negative or positive, so this does not match

well, hey, I'm not a math expert.... I don't really know what happened and I can't run extended in my apple silicon to test if it worked back then... I don;t know why such a crude mistake happened of it really didn't happen for some reason.

It's unlikely to me that [atan2] did behave differently in extended or that it changed and broke backwards compatibility in Vanilla... but I tried this and this does work...

Well, from the help patch of [atan2] in Extended we have this in [pd atan2_vs_atan]....

To the best of my knowledge, this is just wrong and I did mention I saw many wrong things in the extended docs, well, hey, this is one number results simply do not match..., it's good "they" simply did not adopt this

also, to make it clearer, docs usually reffered to other externals, not part of vanilla, and they all came with this [pddplink] external object, so it wasn't possible to just take it... there had to be some work involved and I also wonder why "they who did the changes and made a parallel pd-extended documentation" did not try to actually collaborate to the Vanilla docs...

The pd extended docs do mention "them".... and I quote

"HELP_PATCH_AUTHORS This help patch was updated for Pd version 0.35 test 28 by Dave Sabine as part of a project called pddp proposed by Krzysztof Czaja to build comprehensive documentation for Pd. Jonathan Wilkes revised the patch to conform to the PDDP template for Pd version 0.42."

Again, I was no part of "pddp" and the "pddp" thing got revived, brought back to life and now I do focus on it and work on it a lot, but it's something for Vanilla now, really.

@ddw_music said:

@porres Did this make it into your documentation branch?

Sorry I missed this. I've only recently started tracking this forum more closely. So, to answer you, no, this did not make it into my docs revision. I mean, I revised this help file of course, but didn't have a problem with it.

You could have opened an issue on github or something the https://github.com/pure-data/pddp repository was created just a bit over 3 years ago (nov 24th 2021). This post is "3 years old" but there is no precise date, so not sure if you knew it by then... and well, here it is for everyone to know about it in any case.

@Jona said:

@whale-av I wonder, why "they" dont add those corrections to PD vanilla?

well, who's "they"?

The Pd-extended project was simply an independent development on a fork of Pd and the whole documentation did include particularities of its own, meaning that it referenced to other objects and things that were particular to Pd extended, so not that easy and simple to apply and adopt. Also, in some cases, I found issues and things that were not really accurate, arguably wrong in the Pd-extended docs.

I don't really know what was happening or how it happened as I wasn't that involved back then. I'm curious to know but not that curious to investigate, search the list archives and stuff. But I can make assumptions.

Maybe no one really just bothered in helping with and collaborating to the Pd docs. And I say that because at one point I just started making lots of changes and contributions to the Pd Vanilla docs and there was simply no discussion or resistance. I eventually started getting more comfortable in changing more and more things and was simply trusted and, well, after many many years I basically rewrote the thing and have been working on a manual overhaul this year and whatnot.

I kept hearing people complaining about the Pd docs, and saying how the Extended documentation was so much better. This kept going on after extended simply died and there were forks based on it... and... well... I just decided to do things, take actions, instead of wondering around

So, why weren't "they" doing things? There was no "they"... there weren't just people actually getting involved to collaborate.

Instead of "they", there's always been "we"... this is open source and a community based project. Somehow actions got fragmented into independent efforts, not well coordinated, sometime conflicts did arise. Funny enough, many of the people in this community did not realize they were or could be a part of it and internalized the paradigm of just being "users", while "developers" were anonymous god like entities that were seemingly on another spiritual plane that we could not communicate to and just wonder about how and why "they" did or did not do things

Or maybe, somehow, people incorporate the non open source mentality, where "we" are users and "they" are the unknown paid workers that are working on the company that develops the software.

I did promote a documentation overhaul and posted about it in many channels, asked for collaborations. Anyone (really, anyone!) can do things, propose changes and improvements to the docs... it's open source folks. I haven't been doing it "all by myself". We often discuss how to document some things, it's gotten a little better, but I'm mostly doing this alone, by myself, and pushing it. Practically nobody came up to join me and collaborate and help with the documentation overhaul...

So... that is to say I will see about adding more details to [atan2] and would love to hear actual suggestions about how WE should do it

cheers

@ddw_music said:

At one point, I tried an autocomplete tcl plugin for pd, but it didn't work for me.

what was wrong? I am working on that by the way

I also have a plugin to show and add objects via a right click menu. This one also comes with ELSE and also shows objects for Vanilla.

what's on your patch? do you have externals?

@jamcultur it’s just 4 outputs of audio, as in a quadraphonic setup. You can use just one, two, three (why not?) and whole four of them. If you only have 2 outputs, just use 2 of them or even combine them if you will

@oid said:

[cyclone/scope~]

[cyclone/scope~] and [esle/scope~] are similar and both feeze when clicking on the object. I can add features to [else/scope~] by demand and plan to have a mode where it freezes and/or is triggered by a bang

@Carambolooo said:

numbers dont go in different probabilities but in the same order ive put them on the memory.

that is because the way you fed [markov] only gives a 100% chance of that sequence to happen...

read the documentation carefully, or my live electronics tutorial, so you can better understand how the object works

Unfortunately we are having issues with a couple of new externals when building for the raspberry pi. This happened with the latest update (RC13). @timothyschoen was working on this.

You should be able to build most of objects of RC12 more easily I guess. It uses the old pd-lib-builder method which might be easier as well.

Unfortunately I just have a mac and no VMs to build things :/ I always need the help of a pi user to build this

@flextUser said:

Regarding the virus accusation: Falsely claiming that someone intentionally creates or spreads malware is a serious allegation that could be considered defamation. While online communications can often lead to misunderstandings, especially across language barriers, such claims carry significant weight and cannot be dismissed casually.

That's what you took from saying it was "weird" and that "it almost looked like"? Seems more about how you want to interpret things than a language barrier. And that's what it looked like to me and I explained it in all honesty. I can't take that back, really. I'll even say it again, posting a repository with no source code and just a single .zip file that unpacks to an .exe is quite weird and almost looks like it's a virus... so I don't know, sue me? Or calm down fellow, really...

@FFW said:

I don't know if you and porres are good friend so I've seen it as a attack

Thanks for the comradery. We're not friends and, to be honest, I did think it was really uncalled for, but I didn't take in a bad way and tried to answer politely.

I've been part of this community for ages. I also know Miller and many others personally, and I haven't seen any change in the mindset of this community. People asking for the source code and wondering why you don't share it on the repository is very common. Also, like I said, it is very uncommon for people not to openly share it right away. I guess this may not be a real issue in the MAX community.

I think you may be feeling attacked and reacting defensively. Honestly, the difference in tone I see is from you. Relax, we're cool. We just really like open source and checking out the code and if it's not clearly released as an open source and with a license, we do in fact wonder.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing more of your contributions and code sharing.

cheers

I am actually being serious. It was very weird to see no source code and just see an .exe file, it did really come to mind some sort of suspicion and I had to look for other posts from you in the forum to discard the suspicion. I't just really really common for people to release open source libraries that you can see the source code and provide externals as a .zip file, no .exe installer. Don't take it wrong, that is just weird and not usual. Take it as an honest suggestion. So I ask again, where is the source code? I mean, not even the help files are there and this is really encryptic. Do you plan to open the source code?

I am not a window user, I can't test the windows .exe neither when it comes out via deken. I'd hope for the source code so I could build to check it out or at least just see the help files.

cheers

it's weird cause all it's there is an '.exe' file... almost like if this is a bot spamming for viruses

hi, how is you [atan2] object different than pd's [atan2]? where is the source code?

@timothyschoen should be able to fix this soon and help you with it