Apologies, I'm new around here (and new to PD). Unsure what information I should lead with, but suffice to say I'm using a mostly vanilla version of PD 0.56.2.

I was trying to follow along with this oscilloscope tutorial posted six years back by pd_777.

At the 3:53~ mark he goes into the Canvas properties and enables "graph on parent," which creates a red box that will constrain the visibility when the object is loaded into a later patch.

When I do this, I similarly get the red box, but cannot interact with it. I cannot adjust its position or size. It is like the box isn't there.

Is this a bug, or am I missing something?

Thank you!

p.s. I'm aware he is using "Purr Data," something that no longer seems to exist (or does it?). Still, the functionality in this tutorial all seems to still exist in the modern iteration, save the ability to interact with that red box.

Edit: I figured out a workaround; the canvas box lists "range and size" parameters, which included a size and "margins" field for X and Y. By trial and error I was able to offset the box to what I needed, but this was far less useful than what is shown in that video (click and drag to resize).

you make a pd "sub-patch" object. you put object and type pd and then a space and a name.. and off click so then you are immediately inside the sub patch page. then you right click for properties. you make it yes graph-on parent. and then you move it with margin in the properties window and the size is also in the properties window. then if you go to the above page parent page and you see the object box you made except its larger according to the properties you entered on the inside page.

@willblackhurst said:

you make a pd "sub-patch" object. you put object and type pd and then a space and a name.. and off click so then you are immediately inside the sub patch page. then you right click for properties. you make it yes graph-on parent. and then you move it with margin in the properties window and the size is also in the properties window. then if you go to the above page parent page and you see the object box you made except its larger according to the properties you entered on the inside page.

Not sure what you're trying to say. I know how to make subpatches, and the video I linked is creating a general use object for use in other patches.

I assumed you meant this behavior would change if done in a subpatch, but it's the same.

In short, when I right click on the canvas and select properties, and then enable graph on parent, the red box appears but cannot be moved by the mouse -- is that expected behavior? Hovering over the red box's borders doesn't allow me to relocate or change the size of the box (unlike in the video I linked).

I understand what the red box represents, and got it to work through a laborious process of trial and error as I stated in the "edit" at the bottom of my post.. but am uncertain if it's supposed to be draggable / resizeable via the mouse as evidenced in that video.

@_ish No, the GOP window cannot be set by the mouse. You have to put values into the Size and Margin boxes in its properties dialog.
When you click "apply" you will see the changes whereas if you click OK you will have to open the properties again to make further adjustments.

Welcome to the Forum...!
David.

@_ish FWIW... in PlugData (a JUCE wrapper around Pd, which can run as a plugin or standalone), you can:

1. Create a [pd something] box and open it for editing.
2. Right-click in an empty area of the canvas --> Properties.
3. Set "Is graph" = Yes.

At this point, there are a couple of differences from the classic Pd GUI. One is that the graph-on-parent area is locked to the top left corner -- origin is always (0, 0). That's a limitation, but not an outrageous one. The other is that you can grab the lower right corner and resize by mouse -- both in the subpatch window and in the parent window. (In the PlugData version installed on my machine, however, there is a UI inconsistency -- the canvas properties panel shows width and height, but the numbers here do not sync up with the size that you set by mouse -- in fact, they seem to have no effect at all. That's obviously a bug; I'll report it later.)

Should I do the rant? I kind of feel like doing the rant.

The classic Pd GUI was designed in the mid-90s, and it looks like it, and it acts like it. It's not going to improve. You'll get people on this forum telling you that it doesn't need to improve, because they've been using it for a long time and they're used to it. As an opinion, that's fair enough, but being used to it doesn't negate the observation that this GUI has been sleeping through three decades of UI standards development (and it contradicts those UI standards in some areas -- "no GOP resize by mouse" is one -- the weird behavior of entering edit mode after moving an object by mouse is another).

This GUI is holding Pd back. I've had students tell me, when they see the classic GUI, basically... "Uh. Just no." They won't touch it. They don't care that it's nice and comfy and familiar for old-guard users on the forum. For them, this is not how software is supposed to look.

PlugData is a much-needed shot in the arm, to keep Pd going for a few more decades and attract users who would otherwise look at the chunky black-and-white non-anti-aliased* UI (edit: I forgot about only monospaced fonts in object boxes!) and think, "Why are these people still stuck in 1996?"

* (IIRC Tcl/Tk line drawing is anti-aliased on Mac but it isn't on Windows or Linux. But even suggesting this really basic UI improvement can be controversial on this forum. Few years back, I saw someone on here say that anti-aliased diagonal lines are "too smudgy," preferring stair-stepped pixels because they're "sharp." If that's the climate, then the only way to bring Pd's UI into the modern era is for somebody just do it... which Timothy Schoen did.)

Speaking of being stuck in the 90s, I'll now say "flame suit on"

Anyway, do try PlugData. I use it routinely, pretty much only using the classic GUI if I found a bug and somebody asks, "Did you reproduce it in vanilla?"

hjh

@ddw_music

@ddw_music said:

At this point, there are a couple of differences from the classic Pd GUI. One is that the graph-on-parent area is locked to the top left corner -- origin is always (0, 0). That's a limitation, but not an outrageous one.

FWIW -- I rechecked and this is not true. You can move the top left corner by mouse.

@whale-av "Did I just lose an eyebrow?"

hjh

@ddw_music Oh no...!!... I aimed for both....
David.

@whale-av said:

@_ish No, the GOP window cannot be set by the mouse. You have to put values into the Size and Margin boxes in its properties dialog.
When you click "apply" you will see the changes whereas if you click OK you will have to open the properties again to make further adjustments.

Welcome to the Forum...!
David.

Thank you. Figuring out whether this was a bug, or just a version difference was chief in my aim.

Thank you to everybody else for your commentaries and assistance. Very useful information.