Hi,

I'd like to print the "sent symbol" of a numbox, rather than the value itself

Printing something like this when I change the value of the numbox:
1003-sendnum-s;

Any ideas?

As everything in PD is a message, I guess that the message 1003-sendnum-s 53 ; is sent somewhere when I click on this numbox, but is there a way to intercept it?

So far I tried with:

[receive pd] 
| 
[print]

And I can see something happening when I click this numbox, but the only thing printed is ping, not the full message unfortunately.

Thanks,

@ludnny

I guess I would take a pragmatic approach --

• What information do you have?
  • The send symbol is known: bang --> [symbol $0-sendnum-s].
  • The numeric value is emitted.
• What information do you want?
  • A printable message "symbol value".
• What operation will get from A to B?
  • [pack s f].

TBH I'm not sure there is a ; message being sent to be intercepted -- but you can manufacture one, if that's what you want.

hjh

Thanks!

I should explain what I'd like to achieve:

I'll have hundreds of numboxes like this one, in different abstractions, and I'd like to be able to pick some of them and to control them from outside (from another abstraction or from another software)
A bit like "Instant mapping" in Ableton Live. You activate this mode, you click any parameter and now you can control it.

For now, the workflow is as follows:

• Picking a numbox I want to automate from outside
• Opening the abstraction (Right click on the abstraction / Open)
• Opening the properties (Right click on the numbox / Properties)
• Copying the Receive Symbol content
• Coming back to the main patch
• Creating a Send object connected to a numbox
• Pasting the content of Send Symbol in the send object [s $0-sendnum-r]
• Finding the ID of the abstraction (going back inside the abstraction, creating a [bang] -- [f $0] -- [print] in the abstraction)
• Replacing $0 in the Send object by the ID of the abstraction [s 1003-sendnum-r]

Now I can control this numbox from the new send object, or from another software...

But this is a rather long process, not really usable in a live situation.

An alternative would be to do it the way recommended by @ddw_music, printing [symbol $0-sendnum-r] every time the parameter is changed. This involves preparing all the abstractions/parameters to make it work that way.

But I'd like to find a way that would work with any unprepared gatom.
That's how I came up with the idea of intercepting internal PD messages.

Thanks

@ludnny What about making a graph-on-parent abstraction? It would look like a number atom but you could add logic to set the symbol by argument, and query it from outside.

In object-oriented programming, this is "has-a" style extension of behavior, instead of "is-a." It isn't strictly necessary to have something that is-a number box, as long as it has-a number box and acts like one.

I'm suggesting this because I'm not certain that there are any messages to intercept. That there are internal messages is an assumption in your post but I can easily imagine it not working that way.

hjh

I can think of these ways to archive that:

a ) Use "find", "cut" ect dynamic messages to parse sth and replace it with sth known.
b ) Parse saved .pd files as txt (https://forum.pdpatchrepo.info/topic/13863/some-patches-won-t-open-was-why-vanilla-fails-at-reading-some-purr-data-patches/8 as simple example, this patch is parsing

#N canvas 

c ) Compile this: https://lists.puredata.info/pipermail/pd-list/2002-09/008215.html

d ) Keep track while patching with IEMguts [receivecanvas] (Would be needed for each canvas. But I can't find a way to find and read gatom properties that are already in the patch.)

Cleanest should be b ) and c ).

For the usecase you are describing, b ) might be reasonable.

I am highly interested in c) for total freedom, even for live-patching.

Also maybe ask again in the mailing list, as this is a questions going into the guts of Pd.

Please report back how you are proceeding.

@ludnny I agree that there will be no messages to intercept, as the control chain is built within the Pd binary as the patch is loaded.
If you are very strict with your send/receive naming structure.... maybe adding a tag.... i.e my_snd_whatever and my_recv_whatever then you could do a search and not replace (or replace with copy) with a script.
See https://github.com/Thdub/Optimize_NextGen/blob/master/Files/Utilities/JREPL.bat for windows.
I have used jrep with a message to [system] to modify files from within Pd.
You could print the list to a file as the patch is opened.
I don't think there would be a problem with reading but not writing the patch itself while it is open in Pd..... if that is possible with the script (not replace).
Dollar arguments would be a problem though, but you could print their values to the head of the file first and do the translation in your other program.
David.

You would then need your application to call pdsend (in Pd folder somewhere) and a [netreceive] in Pd with some filtering/routing.
Maybe just as complex as any other way...

@whale-av said:

there will be no messages to intercept, as the control chain is built within the Pd binary as the patch is loaded.

The tcl gui and pd core (on Windows: wish86.exe and pd.exe ?) are networking and it should be possible to sniff this.

@whale-av do you have a running example of interconnecting Pd and Iannix?

But perhaps it's not necessary to sniff internals?

^^ There -- a name-queryable number box.

number.pd
22-1213-test-numbersend.pd

hjh

@lacuna Yes. A huge amount of work getting to grips with Iannix twisted my neurons out of their sockets..
I promised the artist not to share the patches though..... sorry, but if I can help otherwise let me know.

I made patches to write .iannix files according to rules set in Pd..... curves etc.
And patches for playback through OSC and midi.
Iannix runs my laptop hot though...... 2 years of burnt knees!
David.

@ddw_music Thank you, this approach works well, I'll use this if I don't find a way to make it automatic.

But I'd like to continue investigating with something that could work without having to prepare each numbox.

The idea of parsing .pd files by @lacuna is interesting.
I'm investigating in that direction.

The problems with this approach:

• how to query the file name of the abstraction that contains the numbox?
• how to find the right line in the .pd file? using the XY coords of the numbox and the position of the mouse cursor?

I try to find a solution full Vanilla / no external.

The simplest way is to set the label equal to the send value:

EDIT : You need the receive value but it's the same logic.

@FFW Thanks. In that case, is there a way to access the label from the main abstraction?
The goal is to be able to copy/paste this name, but for that we still have to jump into the abstraction, and open the properties of the numberbox.

@ludnny If I understand well you ask to see the receive value when you change the numeric one. To change the number you need to open the abstraction so you see the label…

@ludnny said:

• how to query the file name of the abstraction that contains the numbox?
• how to find the right line in the .pd file? using the XY coords of the

sorry for distraction, didn't read about your workflow carefully enough.
ddw_music's approach might be it.

parsing could help to replace all the boxes in collection of patches you already have made.
just make a self-contained abstraction (with [nb-box\ and bang |o| on a graph-on-parent) and replace all the gatoms with the abstraction's name in .pd files.
even easier to do with a batch-file, text editor, or anything with "find/replace" function.

All connections should remain. .

@ludnny (So far) this this.zip will export all the sends and receives of a patch that contains [export $0 name_of_container_patch.pd]
It prints a file of all send and receive names..... tagged send/receive but that could be dropped.
$0 not implemented yet, nor $1 $2 etc. nor automation of the patch name.
Getting $ values is simple, but substituting them in a symbol in Vanilla less so. I think I know how to do that though.
[[EDIT.. Escaped $ signs in more recent Pd might make that impossible]]
[netsend] could be used to send the info directly to another program that has called pdreceive.
So once the $ values are substituted a means of only sending a name when it is changed should be what you are looking for.
That will need a comparison, and probably the use of a [menusave( message rather than using the menu or a shortcut.

Another idea..... packet sniffing the wish output on port comms with Pd.
I thought the port is fixed, but maybe it is different for each release, or varies nowadays for some other reason....... another hurdle though.
David.

@whale-av said:

Another idea..... packet sniffing the wish output on port comms with Pd.
I thought the port is fixed, but maybe it is different for each release, or varies nowadays for some other reason....... another hurdle though.

FYI port change every time

flachy@joe:~$ lsof | egrep ^pd.*TCP
pd        1685485                               flachy   18u     IPv4             331647       0t0        TCP localhost:52394->localhost:38639 (ESTABLISHED)
pd-watchd 1685488                               flachy   18u     IPv4             331647       0t0        TCP localhost:52394->localhost:38639 (ESTABLISHED)

I tried to socat this address but gui no more responds. I don't know this tool.

flachy@joe:~$ socat -u tcp:localhost:38639 -
.x559641c4ee90 motion 355.0 268.0 0;
.x559641c4ee90 motion 356.0 278.0 0;
.x559641c4ee90 motion 358.0 284.0 0;
.x559641c4ee90 motion 359.0 291.0 0;
.x559641c4ee90 motion 360.0 295.0 0;
.x559641c4ee90 motion 360.0 299.0 0;
pd watchdog;
pd dsp 1;
pd watchdog;
pd watchdog;
pd watchdog;
pd watchdog;
pd menunew PDUNTITLED-2 /home/flachy/PureData;
pd watchdog;

I found a solution, thanks to all for your ideas!
I took the road proposed by @lacuna about file parsing.

Here is the patch, Instant Mapping:

instant-mapping.zip

• the keyboard shortcut to call Instant-Mapping is Ctl+1 then F2
  (weird shortcut, but I couldn't find a way to create an empty object at mouse-position via dynamic patching, so... Ctl+1)

• tested on Pd 53.1 windows.

• the idea was to find a solution Vanilla only, no external.

• I don't know any way to do dynamic patching in the active canvas.
  It looks like you always have to choose a canvasname or a filename to send the instructions.
  So it breaks a bit the purpose to have a one-shortcut-solution... You have first to give a canvasname "main" to your patch.

• it works for auto-replacing $1, but not for $0, you have to replace them manually (I'm not sure it's possible to query the $0 from outside)

• about the mouse position when using the shortcut: try to target the top-left of the object, because this is where is the origin point of each object

I'm afraid it's not totally reliable (I wouldn't use it in live performance, I had some crashs), but it works for my use case.

I'm still interested in a cleaner way to achieve that in Vanilla.