Gemwin has no control and openpanel crashes pd-extended
OS X 10.5.2; installed from hans' most recent two builds. (in case the newest one was buggy). I have used the build you linked to unsuccessfully. I have also tried removing the org.puredata.plist file from ~/library/preferences before installing with no success.
An update - the problem occurs whenever I open any new window - even a new patch. immediately subsequently pd-extended crashes once on load.
Another thing that confuses me is that I still get a default font missing report after installing the version that now uses monaco as the default - I am guessing the same problem may be causing pd-extended to fail to reach all these.
all my engineer friends make fun of me for being confused by crash reports, but I can't get much past the "bad access" and "kern invalid address" seeming to imply that the problem is with how pd-extended relates to mac OS X not something internal to pd-extended.
I have here's what it says for the openpanel crash:
Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEGV)
Exception Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x00000000074fd008
Crashed Thread: 0
Thread 0 Crashed:
0 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95ef3be9 _CFDoExceptionOperation + 441
1 com.apple.Foundation 0x9267a6e1 _NSRemoveAltHandler2 + 33
2 com.apple.AppKit 0x91415ac0 -[NSFocusStack unfocusView:] + 135
3 com.apple.AppKit 0x914159d1 -[NSView unlockFocus] + 117
4 com.apple.AppKit 0x9162da96 -[NSMatrix drawCellAtRow:column:] + 90
5 com.apple.AppKit 0x9158244a -[NSMatrix selectCellAtRow:column:] + 978
6 com.apple.AppKit 0x91630003 -[NSBrowser selectRow:inColumn:] + 301
7 com.apple.AppKit 0x9162273d -[NSNavBrowserDelegate reloadChildrenForNode:] + 2197
8 com.apple.AppKit 0x91621e78 -[NSNavDataSource _reloadChildrenForNode:] + 67
9 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f6af -[NSNavDataSource _handleChildrenChanged:] + 275
10 com.apple.Foundation 0x9264fcdc _nsnote_callback + 364
11 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e5a9da __CFXNotificationPost + 362
12 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e5acb3 _CFXNotificationPostNotification + 179
13 com.apple.Foundation 0x9267d0fc -[NSNotificationCenter postNotification:] + 124
14 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f4be +[NSNavFBENode _postNotificationForEvent:notificationName:parent:child:fbeProperty:] + 542
15 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f299 +[NSNavFBENode _postNotificationForEvent:notificationName:parent:child:] + 70
16 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f24a +[NSNavFBENode _postNotificationForEvent:notificationName:parent:] + 63
17 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161e918 +[NSNavFBENode _reallyProcessNotifications:] + 700
18 com.apple.Foundation 0x926a9e0d __NSFirePerformTimer + 477
19 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e779c2 __CFRunLoopDoObservers + 466
20 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e78d25 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 853
21 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e79d18 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 88
22 com.tcltk.tcllibrary 0x0a077bd3 Tcl_WaitForEvent + 679
23 com.tcltk.tcllibrary 0x0a0557ea Tcl_DoOneEvent + 312
24 com.tcltk.tklibrary 0x0b011f20 Tk_MainLoop + 36
25 com.tcltk.tklibrary 0x0b01dd26 Tk_MainEx + 1513
26 org.puredata.pd.wish 0x00002acb 0x1000 + 6859
27 org.puredata.pd.wish 0x00002a7e 0x1000 + 6782
28 org.puredata.pd.wish 0x000029a5 0x1000 + 6565
Crack
> Andy, *astonishing* sounds.
> 100% Pure Pure Pure PureData?
> (allowed answers: YES!!!).
Thanks very much Alberto, as you surmise...yes indeed. Not just pure Pd but very efficient Pd. One tries to re-factor the equations and models, transforming between methods and looking for shortcuts, boiling each one down to the least number of operations. There are nicer sounds, but these ones are developed to use low CPU and run multiple instances in real-time.
> About EA: which games?
Truth be told, I don't know. If I did I would probably have to observe NDA anyway. Which is one reason I'm not working on them, because I am going to publish all my methods in a coherent and structured thesis - it's the best strategy to push procedural audio forwards for all. Maybe it will be personally rewarding later down the line. But I do talk to leading developers and R&D people, and slowly working towards a strategic consensus. All the same, I'd be rather cautious about saying who is doing what, games people like to keep a few surprises back
> So this means designing an audio engine which is
> both responsive to the soundtrack/score, as well as
> to the actual action and human input of the game?
> Why wouldn't PD be the natural choice?
Pd _would_ be the natural choice. Not least of all, it's BSD type license means developers can just embed it. But it has competitors, (far less capable ones imho) that have established interests in the game audio engine market including a vast investment of skills (game sound designers are already familiar with them). So rather than let Pd simply blow them out of the water one needs a more inclusive approach by saying "hey guys..you should be embedding Pd into your engines"
Many hard decisions are not technical, but practical. For example you can't just replace all sample based assets, and you need to plan and build toolchains that fit into existing practices. Games development is big team stuff, so Pd type procedural audio has to be phased in quite carefully. Also, we want to avoid hype. The media have a talent for siezing on any new technological development and distorting it to raise unrealistic expectations. They call it "marketing", but it's another word for uninformed bullshit. This would be damaging to procedural audio if the marketers hyped up a new title as "revolutionary synthetic sound" and everyone reviewed it as rubbish. So the trick is to stealthily sneak it in under the media radar - the best we can hope for with procedural audio to begin with is that nobody really notices Then the power will be revealed.
> Obi, I've noticed that a lot of your tutorials and
> patches are based on generative synthesis/modelling,
> rather than samples. Is this the standard in the game world?
No. The standard is still very much sample based, which is the crux of the whole agenda. Sample based game audio is extremely limited from an interactive POV, even where you use hybrid granular methods. My inspiration and master, a real Jedi who laid the foundations for this project is a guy called Perry Cook, he's the one who wrote the first book on procedural audio, but it
was too ahead of the curve. Now we have multi-core CPU's there's actually a glut of cycles and execs running around saying "What are we going to use all this technology for?". The trick in moving from Perrys models to practical synthetic game audio is all about parameterisation, hooking the equations into the physics of the situation. A chap called Kees van den Doel did quite a lot of the groundwork that inspired me to take a mixed spectral/physical approach to parameterisation. This is how I break down a model and reconstruct it piecewise.
> Is this chiefly to save space on the media?
Not the main reason. But it does offer a space efficiency of many orders of magnitude!!!! Just as a bonus I don't think many games developers have realised or understood this profound fact. Procedural methods _have_ been used in gaming, for example Elite was made possible by tricks that came from the demo scene to create generative worlds, and this has been extended in Spore. But you have to remember that storage is also getting cheaper, so going in the other direction you have titles like Heavenly Sword that use 10GB of raw audio data. The problem with this approach is that it forces the gameplay to take a linear narrative, they become pseudo-films, not games.
> Cpu cycles?
No, the opposite. You trade off space for cycles. It is much much more CPU intensive than playing back samples.
> Or is it simply easier to create non-linear sound design
> this way?
Yes. In a way, it's the only way to create true non-linear (in the media sense) sound design. Everything else is a script over a matrix of pre-determined possibilities.
oops rambled again... back to it...
a.
Problem compiling external on Windows
I'm having trouble getting the helloworld external to compile properly on Windows.
The main resource is apparently this: HOWTO write an External for puredata, and some previous posts on this topic are here: Compiling new external, Max/MSP microtuning externals to convert to pd
Bear with me, because working with the C compiler is still rather mysterious to me, so I may be making some obvious mistakes. I've installed the djgpp compiler, and followed all the instructions as best as I could. I'm working on XP. I put "m_pd.h" (from the pd/src/ folder) and "helloworld.c" in the same folder and from that directory on the command line (in a DOS "Command Prompt" window) typed:
gcc -c helloworld.c -o helloworld.o
As far as I can tell, this successfully produced the "helloworld.o" object file in the same directory as the "helloworld.c" file. Then I typed:
ld -export_dynamic -shared -o helloworld.dll helloworld.o -lc -lm
Which, as I understand, is the "linking" step, and the only difference between this command and the command for linux is that ".pd_linux" is replaced with ".dll". Anyway, the compiler responded with:
c:/progra~1/djgpp/bin/ld.exe: -shared not supported
So, not having any other ideas, I tried omitting the -shared flag:
ld -export_dynamic -o helloworld.dll helloworld.o -lc -lm
That produced this response:
c:/progra~1/djgpp/bin/ld.exe: warning: cannot find entry symbol xport_dynamic; defaulting to 000018d0
helloworld.o:helloworld.c:(.text+0x1e): undefined reference to `post'
helloworld.o:helloworld.c:(.text+0x37): undefined reference to `pd_new'
helloworld.o:helloworld.c:(.text+0x60): undefined reference to `gensym'
helloworld.o:helloworld.c:(.text+0x79): undefined reference to `class_new'
helloworld.o:helloworld.c:(.text+0x96): undefined reference to `class_addbang'
Why is -shared not supported and what can I do to fix that? I tried Microsoft Visual C++ Express Edition, but found the interface bewildering. I don't think I could even find the words "compile" and "link" in any menu...
Then I looked in the "0.README" file located in the pd/doc/6.externs/ directory, and found this line (in reference to the 3 example enternals in that folder):
To compile, type "make pd_linux", "nmake pd_nt", "make pd_irix5" or "make pd_irix6".
If I wanted to compile these, where would I even type this? Is "nmake" an actual command?
Then I tried poking around the GNU info files, and saw some vague information about "binutils" and "dlltool" but it is so beyond me right now that I'm turning here. Could someone please enumerate the steps required to take the C source file "helloworld.c" and make it into a usable object in pd without skipping any steps? I (and I'm sure many others) would greatly appreciate that.
Thanks in advance!
Working on some trancy gates
http://www.hypercirclestudios.com/slvmchn/stuttersputter.mp3
http://www.hypercirclestudios.com/slvmchn/morepsygoa.mp3
<img src = "http://www.hypercirclestudios.com/slvmchn/stuttersputter.png">
neither are complete songs per se but more just jamming out with mamalala's bassemu~ and some gates/delays... fun stuff
Escher-esque chord progressions
I've been getting into writing patches that generate music all by themselves, using mathematical
rules that apply quite nicely to music theory. I've made a few rhythm patches that make nice cross
rhythms using metronome division and delays (with values derived from multiples of the master
metronome), and i'll post these too if anyone is interested.
In this thread I'm showing off my "Mauritz Escher like Chord progressions" patch.
Screenshot:
Mp3: http://responsible7.googlepages.com/zenpho_escher_pd.mp3
Patch: http://responsible7.googlepages.com/zenpho_escher.pd
First some basic music theory:
(skip this if you're comfortable with chords, 7ths, and inversions)
A major scale is constructed of 8 notes, with the "root" note doubled at the 8th note.
For the key of C major (all the "white" notes on a piano) the names and numbers of the notes in
the scale of C-major are:
Name, Number:
C, 1st (root)
D, 2nd
E, 3rd
F, 4th
G, 5th
A, 6th
B, 7th
C, 8th (remember the root is doubled at the octave)
A triad is constructed of the 1st, the 3rd, and the 5th notes in the scale.
A SEVENTH chord is constructed of a triad (notes 1,3 and 5) PLUS the 7th note in the
scale. So a C major 7th is note 1,3,5,7 or C,E,G,B.
Up until now we've been describing "standard" voicings of the chords, in other words, the notes
are played so that the root is the lowest pitched note, the 3rd is higher, the 5th is higher
still, and the 7th is the note just below the octave of the root.
At the risk of sounding redundant, "octave numbers" after the note name help clarify which octave
the note is to be played in. To play a C major 7th on the third octave, we would write:
C3,E3,G3,B3. To play it an octave higher we would write: C4,E4,G4,B4.
"Inversions" of chords re-order the pitches of the notes, but still play notes with the same
"name" as the 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. For example:
C3,E3,G3,B3 is a standard C major 7th...
...and G2,C3,E3,B3 is an inversion. All the notes are there (C,E,G,B) but they are in a different
order to the normal "Root, Third, Fifth, Seventh" arrangement. In this case, we say that "the
fifth is in the root".
Okay so now we know what a major 7th chord is. Lets deal with chord progressions.
Now imagine playing C3,E3,G3,B3 and removing the "root" (the C3) from the notes played,
we have a chord that reads "E3,G3,B3" - we were playing C major 7th and now we're playing E minor.
*THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT STEP* Moving from C major 7 to E minor sounds "natrual" because the
notes that occour in C major 7 ALSO occour in the E minor.
Now lets make this E minor chord a 7th...
We've said before that a 7th chord can be constructed by playing the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes, PLUS
the 7th note in the scale.
The scale of E minor (a flavour of minor) is:
Name, Number
E, 1st (root)
F#, 2nd
G, 3rd
E, 4th
B, 5th
C, 6th
D, 7th
E, 8th (octave)
The 7th note is "D" so we add the D note to our E minor triad to make E minor 7th.
E minor 7th is therefore: "E3,G3,B3,D4".
We can extend this E minor again, removing the root, working out the new scale for G major, adding
the 7th to make G major 7th, and again, and again, and again... but if we do - we keep moving
*UP IN PITCH* and spiral off the end of the keyboard.
HOW THE PATCH WORKS
Okay, so what my patch does is to take the idea of generating new 7th chords over and over,
but to play inversions of these chords so that the notes stay inside a single octave. If the
"root" note is in the 3rd octave, C3 for example. Then when I move to E minor, the D4 is
transposed to be a D3, to keep within this octave range.
Due to the fact that there are 12 semitones in an octave, and notes that fall outside the octave
range will wrap around to be an octave lower. The maths for generating the new chords basically
involves taking each note in the current major 7th chord and adding two semitones to each note in
turn.
Now our terminology could cause confusion here, because there are "notes in a scale" and "notes in a chord"... So I'm going to define some notation to show when i'm talking about the notes in a
chord.
For example:
A C major 7th has the notes C3,E3,G3,B3.
Note-1-in-the-chord is to be defined as chord_note_1.
Note-2-in-the-chord is defined as chord_note_2.
Note-3-in-the-chord is defined as chord_note_3.
Note-4-in-the-chord is defined as chord_note_4.
chord_note_1 has the pitch C3.
chord_note_2 has the pitch E3.
chord_note_3 has the pitch G3.
chord_note_4 has the pitch B3.
It is important to be clear about the idea of "pitch", "chord_notes" and "scale_notes" because
because chord_note_3 has the pitch "G3" and scale_note_3 of C major which is the pitch "E3".
Back to the procedure for generating new seventh chords.
We generate a major 7th to begin with.
C3,E3,G3,B3.
We add 2 semitones to chord_note_1 to get "D3", and we leave the other notes alone.
Our chord now reads: D3,E3,G3,B3.
Which is an "inversion" of E minor 7th.
This time we add 2 semitones to chord_note_2 to get "F#3", and we leave the other notes alone as
before.
Our chord now reads: D3,F#3,G3,B3
This is an inversion of G major 7th.
This time we add 2 semitones to chord_note_3 to get "A3", we leave the other notes.
Our chord now reads: D3,F#3,A3,B3
This is an inversion of B minor 7th.
This time we add 2 semitones to chord_note_4 to get C#4...
*BUT C#4 IS OUTSIDE THE OCTAVE 3! So we TRANSPOSE it down to C#3*
Our chord now reads: D#3,F#3,A3,C#3
This is an inversion of D major 7th.
After my patch modifies all 4 chord_notes, it moves back to chord_note_1, and adds another
2 semitones... over and over.
Eventually we get back to C major 7th again, but on the way we move through a variety of different
chords that evokes very interesting changes of moods.
Want to try playing with it?
Mp3: http://responsible7.googlepages.com/zenpho_escher_pd.mp3
Patch: http://responsible7.googlepages.com/zenpho_escher.pd
Pure Data Seminars in Paris, 4 days in june
> Les samedis 4, 11, 18 et 25 juin • seminaires sur l'interactivité
Pure Data
par Art Sensitif
De 11h à 19h • 20 euros par jour / TR 10 euros
Information, réservation : ateliers@mainsdoeuvres.org
[url=http://www.artsens.org
]http://www.artsens.org
Pure Data est un logiciel libre et ouvert (Windows-Linux-Mac OSX) développé par une grande communauté d'artistes et de programmeurs (http://pure-data.iem.at/).
Il permet la manipulation ou la génération en temps réel de sons, images, vidéos, textes, flux de réseau, capteurs, actionneurs... tout médium numérique en entrée et en sortie.
Pure Data se dédie à tous les usages artistiques.
4 journées thématiques y sont consacrées :
* 4 juin, Pure Data et 3D, avec Cyrille Henry : la librairie GEM pour la création d'objets 3D, la librairie PMPD pour des propriétés physiques temps réel.
* 11 juin, Pure Data, capteurs et réseaux, avec Sandrine Chiri et/ou Francis Bras (InterfaceZ) : type de capteurs, acquisition et traitement, transmission par réseau.
* 18 juin, Pure Data et traitement du son, avec Cyrille Henry et Nicolas Montgermont : acoustique et spatialisation du son.
>> Séminaire suivi du live sonore et visuel de chdh.
* 25 juin, Pure Data et vidéo temps réel avec Benjamin Cadon : les trois librairies permettant le traitement vidéo.
>> Séminaire suivi d'une présentation publique du workshop "GPS_MOVIE_2" par Daniel Sciboz.
Les séminaires programmés par Jean-Noël Montagné (association Art Sensitif) comprennent les installations, des travaux pratiques avec les participants et démonstrations par les experts associés.
InterfaceZ : www.interface-z.com <http://www.interface-z.com/> , La Kitchen : www.la-kitchen.com <http://www.la-kitchen.com/> , Labomédia : www.labomedia.org <http://www.labomedia.org/>
Mains d'Œuvres
1, rue Charles Garnier, 93 400 Saint-Ouen / Tel : 01 40 11 25 25 / Fax : 01 40 11 25 24
info@mainsdoeuvres.org / plan d'accès sur [url=http://www.mainsdoeuvres.org
]http://www.mainsdoeuvres.org
Metro Porte de Clignancourt (l.4) ou Garibaldi (l.13) / Bus 85 : arrêt Paul Bert
Pd workshop in Madrid
> Instituto Nacional de las Artes Escénicas y la Música
> MINISTERIO DE EDUCACIÓN, CULTURA Y DEPORTE
> Centro para la Difusión de la Música Contemporánea
>
> Curso:Introducción a la Creación de Aplicaciones Musicales con PD/MAX por
> Juan Andrés Beato y Gregorio García Karman
>
>
> 7 - 11 Marzo 2005
> teoría: 16.00 a 19.00 horas
> prácticas: del 8 al 11 de Marzo, de 11.00 a15.00 horas en grupos de 2
> alumnos (solo alumnos activos)
>
> lugar:
> LIEM-CDMC
> Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía, 5ª planta
> c) Santa Isabel 52, 28012 Madrid
>
>
> Pure Data (PD) es un entorno de programación gráfica para aplicaciones
> musicales que funciona bajo Windows, OSX, Linux e Irix. Desarrollado por
> Miller Puckette y de distribución libre y código abierto, constituye junto
> con MAX/MSP uno de los modelos de software musical de más impacto y
> difusión en la actualidad. La programación se realiza interconectando
> objetos gráficos, que representan instrucciones, en un entorno
> fuertemente desestructurado y optimizado para el procesado de audio y
> vídeo en tiempo real. Su objetivo es ofrecer al músico una herramienta
> intuitiva y versátil: se utiliza para crear instrumentos virtuales o
> emular el funcionamiento de equipos hardware, realizar composiciones de
> música electrónica en vivo, en instalaciones, conciertos en red y jams
> on-line. Su flexibilidad para tratar MIDI, audio, vídeo y 3D en un paquete
> integrado y con múltiples posibilidades de control, hace que encuentre
> también un número creciente de aplicaciones en el ámbito de los
> multimedia, la performance, VJing..., así como en la enseñanza, en la
> ingeniería de sonido y la musicología (arqueología electroacústica). El
> objetivo del curso es dar a conocer la filosofía y los fundamentos de
> programación de los entornos basados en el "paradigma MAX", ilustrados a
> través de ejemplos realizados en Pure Data así como de aplicaciones reales
> ya desarrolladas.
> Se tratarán los conocimientos necesarios para poder dar primeros pasos en
> este entorno, así como para que el alumno pueda desenvolverse
> posteriormente utilizándolo para la creación de aplicaciones musicales
> propias. A lo largo del curso, se realizará un repaso de los diferentes
> elementos de PD demostrando su funcionamiento junto con conceptos
> básicos del programa (orden, encapsulamiento...). Se presentarán las
> principales familas de objetos estudiando ejemplos implementados en PD de
> técnicas 'en vivo' de síntesis, control algorítmico, manipulación de
> muestras y procesado, afines a la música electroacústica. De manera
> destacada, se tratarán aspectos particulares de PD como las data
> structures, una herramienta específica de este entorno para el
> almacenamiento y visualización de datos que permite el control de PD desde
> partituras gráficas diseñadas por el usuario. También se realizará un
> repaso de los externals y librerías más relevantes utilizadas en la
> programación de aplicaciones musicales (objetos de análisis,
> comunicación, espacialización, streaming...), señalando algunos aspectos
> comunes y divergentes entre PD y su contrapartida comercial MAX. Desde una
> perspectiva más general, se tratarán cuestiones propias de los sistemas
> musicales en tiempo real como el acondicionamiento de datos de control o
> el mapping y se presentarán diferentes estrategias de control sonoro
> empleadas en la creación de aplicaciones musicales, analizando ejemplos de
> piezas realizadas con PD y MAX.
>
> Dirigido a:
> Compositores, intérpretes musicales, musicólogos, artistas sonoros,
> músicos en general tanto profesionales como estudiantes.
>
> Inscripción
> Número de plazas: 8 alumnos activos (serán seleccionados por currículum)
>
> 22 alumnos oyentes
>
> Precio de matrícula: 45 euros. Descuento del 50% a estudiantes que lo
> acrediten
> Para inscribirse envíen una carta de solicitud con su nombre, dirección,
> teléfono, correo electrónico y/o fax indicando su intención de optar a
> "alumno activo" o no, y su currículum especificando experiencia en los
> campos que cubre el curso
> Envíen por correo ordinario, electrónico o fax a:
> "Curso Introducción a la Creación de Aplicaciones Musicales con PD/MAX "
>
> LIEM-CDMC
> (Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía)
> c) Santa Isabel 52 , 28012 Madrid, ESPAÑA
> tel: (+34) 91 774 1072, (+34) 91 774 1073; fax: (+34) 91 774 1075
> cdmc@inaem.mcu.es [url=http://cdmc.mcu.es
]http://cdmc.mcu.es
>
> El plazo de inscripción se cerrará el primer día de clase. No obstante el
> 24 de febrero se comunicará a los asistentes su admisión como alumno
> activo u oyente.
> El pago de matrícula deberán realizarlo después de que les hayamos
> confirmado la admisión, y el primer día de clase deberán entregarnos el
> justificante del pago.
> Ingresar el importe en cualquier oficina del BBVA, a nombre del
> Instituto Nacional de las Artes Escénicas y de la Música, en la cuenta
> siguiente:
> Entidad: 0182 Sucursal: 2370 Dígito de control: 40 c/c:
> 0200201218
> Al término del curso, los alumnos recibirán un diploma acreditativo de
> asistencia.
> Cualquier información que se precise sobre estos cursos o las diversas
> actividades del CDMC, puede solicitarse en la dirección indicada
> anteriormente.
>
End of year warehouse clearance
***a remix of my favourite cthulu master:
[url=http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/hidaris-lash-inhaler.mp3
]http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/hidaris-lash-inhaler.mp3
***the original lyrics to the following song were:
"i'm on the drug that killed river phoenix"
[url=http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/realfuckenhigh.mp3
]http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/realfuckenhigh.mp3
***here's the type of rushed mania you get when you make a song in the 20 minutes before your laptop battery runs out
[url=http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/nobatts.mp3
]http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/nobatts.mp3
***a recording of the lush clicks you get when using the trigon patch from kestner
[url=http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/tansai.mp3
]http://www.m-pi.com/sinewaves/tansai.mp3
(link to patch) http://chiba.cool.ne.jp/kestner_2002/