@Maelstorm said:

If you're on OSX, jack can be used as an insert plug-in so you can avoid the separate tracks, but you still get the latency.

which you can, depending on your host, eliminate by setting the track delay for the track with the plugin. So if the buffer is 512 sample/11.82 ms then set the delay to that and it should be spot on.

I've had the whole Jack graph latency explained to me numerous times by Stephane Letz and it still doesn't go in.....Heres what he told me...

> > Its the Pd > JAck > Ableton latency. (Ableton has otoh 3 different
> > ways of manually setting latency compensation - I'm just not very
> > clear on where to start with regards to input from JAck)
> >>>>
>
> This is NO latency introduced in a Pd > JAck > Ableton kind of
> chain; the JACK server activate each client in turn (that is Pd *then*
> Ableton in this case) in the *same* given audio cycle.
>
> Remember : the JACK server is able to "sort" (in some way) the graph
> of all connected clients to activate each client audio callback at the
> right place during the audio cycle. For example:
>
> 1) in a sequential kind of graph like IN ==> A ==> B ==> C ==> OUT,
> JACK server will activate A (which would typically consume new audio
> buffers available in machine audio IN drivers) then activate B (which
> would typically consume "output" just produced by A) , then activate
> C , then produce the machine OUT audio buffers.
>
> 2) in a graph will parallel sub-graph like : IN ==> A ==> B ==> C
> ==> OUT and IN ==> D ==> B ==> C ==> OUT (that is both A and D are
> connected to input and send to , then JACK server is able to
> activate A and D at the same time (since the both only depends of IN)
> and a multi-core machine will typically run A and D at the same time
> on 2 different cores. Then when A *and* D are finished, B can be
> activated... and so on.
>
> The input/output latency of a usual CoreAudio application running
> is: driver input latency + driver input latency offset + 2
> application buffer-size + driver output latency + driver output
> latency offset.
>

this next part is the important bit i think...

> For a graph of JACK clients: driver input latency + driver input
> latency offset + 2 JACK Server buffer-size + ( one extra buffer-
> size ) + driver output latency + driver output latency offset.
>
> (Note : there is an additional one extra buffer-size latency on OSX,
> since the JACK server is running in the so called "asynchronous" mode
> [there is also a "synchronous" mode without this one extra buffer-size
> available, but it is less reliable on OSX and we choose to use the
> "asynchronous" mode by default.])
>
> Stephane
>

didnt know jack also worked for windows xp?

EDIT:just downloaded jack from the website,but i get all kinds of errors when i try to unzip?

! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open Versions\Current\Headers (jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Jackmp.framework\Headers --> Versions\Current\Headers)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open Versions\Current\Jackmp (jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Jackmp.framework\Jackmp --> Versions\Current\Jackmp)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open Versions\Current\Resources (jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Jackmp.framework\Resources --> Versions\Current\Resources)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create ersions\Current\Headers
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Jackservermp
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Resources
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Jackservermp.framework\Resources (A --> jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Jackservermp.framework\Resources)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Panda
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Resources
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Panda.framework\Resources (A --> jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_32bits\Panda.framework\Resources)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Headers
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Jackmp
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Resources
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_64bits\Jackmp.framework\Resources (A --> jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_64bits\Jackmp.framework\Resources)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Headers
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Jackservermp
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Resources
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_64bits\Jackservermp.framework\Resources (A --> jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_64bits\Jackservermp.framework\Resources)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Panda
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create Versions\Current\Resources
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot open jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_64bits\Panda.framework\Resources (A --> jack-1.9.2\bin\osx_64bits\Panda.framework\Resources)
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Symbolic link points to missing file
! C:\Documents and Settings\administartor\Desktop\jack audio\jack-1.9.2.tgz: Cannot create

Yeah but OSS doesn't work either. Will mess around with both ALSA and OSS settings within pd a little more, but seems like my only option is jack even if it keeps crackling.

I wouldn't know about mac, but so far Linux has been the best option for me. Earlier I didn't have to do anything and everything worked automatically (Ubuntu Studio 7.10 for around a year and a half maybe), but as soon as I updated I've been having problems I don't seem to be able to solve.

EDIT: Ok my bad, I had jack running while I tried to use OSS, OSS works fine. But I would prefer some day (when I get better at pd) using it connected to other programs (Renoise), and when I try to use jack the terminal says: "cannot lock down memory for RT thread (Cannot allocate memory)" and jack gets dozens of xruns in seconds, so it crackles the whole time. The same thing with ALSA.

I tried to use OSS with jack but that didn't work at all, my mouse started lagging and the jack messages window was filled with "delay of 2656.000 usecs exceeds estimated spare time of 2621.000; restart ..."

I use:
pd -jack -alsamidi -nogui -open /some/file
but I still cannot see puredata in Jack Control 'Connections' window.

Same problem here. I use
pd -jack /some/file.pd but pd won't show up in the Jack Control Connections window. When I change to ALSA manually after pd launched I get an error (obviously) since Jack already uses the alsa output. After changing back to Jack in pd it suddenly works.

Another question: how can I set "audio ON" straight from the command line?

I hope I did this right: I opened Console, then launched PD. I've pasted the contents of the console window below (after that I pasted the contents of pd.crash.log

===== Saturday, March 28, 2009 11:45:29 AM America/New_York =====
2009-03-28 11:46:02.321 BOMArchiveHelper[343] opened /Users/larz/Downloads/.BAHh1Ptn/pd-0.42-4.mac.tar
Pt_Start() called
Mar 28 11:46:42 KlipperBook crashdump[394]: pd crashed
Mar 28 11:46:43 KlipperBook crashdump[394]: crash report written to: /Users/larz/Library/Logs/CrashReporter/pd.crash.log
pd_gui: pd process exited

================

pd.crash.log:

**********

Host Name: KlipperBook
Date/Time: 2009-03-28 11:46:40.715 -0400
OS Version: 10.4.11 (Build 8S2167)
Report Version: 4

Command: pd
Path: /Applications/Pd-0.42-4.app/Contents/Resources/Scripts/../bin/pd
Parent: Pd [351]

Version: (0.38)

PID: 352
Thread: 3

Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE (0x0002) at 0x00000004

Thread 0:
0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x9001a1cc select + 12
1 pd 0x00044706 sys_microsleep + 19 (s_inter.c:207)
2 pd 0x000423a7 m_mainloop + 468 (m_sched.c:511)
3 pd 0x000444a2 sys_main + 1642 (s_main.c:313)
4 pd 0x00002876 _start + 216
5 pd 0x0000279d start + 41

Thread 1:
0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90009cd7 mach_msg_trap + 7
1 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x9082d21b CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 2014
2 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x9082ca36 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 61
3 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x91469356 HALRunLoop::OwnThread(void*) + 158
4 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x91469171 CAPThread::Entry(CAPThread*) + 93
5 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024227 _pthread_body + 84

Thread 2:
0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90047dd7 semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 7
1 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x914765a4 CAGuard::WaitFor(unsigned long long) + 212
2 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x914764c6 CAGuard::WaitUntil(unsigned long long) + 66
3 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x91474e42 HP_IOThread::WorkLoop() + 690
4 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x91474b8b HP_IOThread::ThreadEntry(HP_IOThread*) + 17
5 com.apple.audio.CoreAudio 0x91469171 CAPThread::Entry(CAPThread*) + 93
6 libSystem.B.dylib 0x90024227 _pthread_body + 84

Thread 3 Crashed:
0 pd 0x00074746 PaUtil_SetInputFrameCount + 13 (pa_process.c:464)
1 pd 0x00079b60 AudioIOProc + 1925 (pa_mac_core.c:1879)

Thread 3 crashed with X86 Thread State (32-bit):
eax: 0x00000000 ebx: 0x000793ec ecx: 0x00000000 edx: 0x00000000
edi: 0x00000000 esi: 0xb0182190 ebp: 0xb0182168 esp: 0xb0182168
ss: 0x0000001f efl: 0x00010246 eip: 0x00074746 cs: 0x00000017
ds: 0x0000001f es: 0x0000001f fs: 0x00000000 gs: 0x00000037

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0x931e7000 - 0x931f3fff com.apple.opengl 1.5.1 /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/OpenGL
0x93263000 - 0x93263fff com.apple.Cocoa 6.4 (???) /System/Library/Frameworks/Cocoa.framework/Versions/A/Cocoa
0x93265000 - 0x9391bfff com.apple.AppKit 6.4.10 (824.45) /System/Library/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/C/AppKit
0x93c9c000 - 0x93d17fff com.apple.CoreData 91 (92.1) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreData.framework/Versions/A/CoreData
0x93d50000 - 0x93e09fff com.apple.audio.toolbox.AudioToolbox 1.4.7 /System/Library/Frameworks/AudioToolbox.framework/Versions/A/AudioToolbox
0x93e4c000 - 0x93e4cfff com.apple.audio.units.AudioUnit 1.4.3 /System/Library/Frameworks/AudioUnit.framework/Versions/A/AudioUnit
0x93e4e000 - 0x9400ffff com.apple.QuartzCore 1.4.12 /System/Library/Frameworks/QuartzCore.framework/Versions/A/QuartzCore
0x94055000 - 0x94096fff libsqlite3.0.dylib /usr/lib/libsqlite3.0.dylib
0x9409e000 - 0x940e1fff libGLImage.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLImage.dylib
0x940e5000 - 0x940fbfff com.apple.CoreVideo 1.4.2 /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreVideo.framework/Versions/A/CoreVideo
0x9410b000 - 0x945c7fff libGLProgrammability.dylib /System/Library/Frameworks/OpenGL.framework/Versions/A/Libraries/libGLProgrammability.dylib
0x948d3000 - 0x94beafff com.apple.QuickTime 7.4.5 (67) /System/Library/Frameworks/QuickTime.framework/Versions/A/QuickTime
0x96cbe000 - 0x96cf4fff com.apple.audio.midi.CoreMIDI 1.5.1 (41) /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreMIDI.framework/Versions/A/CoreMIDI
0x970c7000 - 0x970c7fff com.apple.vecLib 3.3.1 (vecLib 3.3.1) /System/Library/Frameworks/vecLib.framework/Versions/A/vecLib
0x97641000 - 0x97646fff com.apple.agl 2.6.2 (AGL-2.6.2) /System/Library/Frameworks/AGL.framework/Versions/A/AGL
0x9896d000 - 0x998fefff com.apple.QuickTimeComponents.component 7.4.5 (67) /System/Library/QuickTime/QuickTimeComponents.component/Contents/MacOS/QuickTimeComponents

OS X 10.5.2; installed from hans' most recent two builds. (in case the newest one was buggy). I have used the build you linked to unsuccessfully. I have also tried removing the org.puredata.plist file from ~/library/preferences before installing with no success.

An update - the problem occurs whenever I open any new window - even a new patch. immediately subsequently pd-extended crashes once on load.

Another thing that confuses me is that I still get a default font missing report after installing the version that now uses monaco as the default - I am guessing the same problem may be causing pd-extended to fail to reach all these.

all my engineer friends make fun of me for being confused by crash reports, but I can't get much past the "bad access" and "kern invalid address" seeming to imply that the problem is with how pd-extended relates to mac OS X not something internal to pd-extended.

I have here's what it says for the openpanel crash:

Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEGV)
Exception Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x00000000074fd008
Crashed Thread: 0

Thread 0 Crashed:
0 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95ef3be9 _CFDoExceptionOperation + 441
1 com.apple.Foundation 0x9267a6e1 _NSRemoveAltHandler2 + 33
2 com.apple.AppKit 0x91415ac0 -[NSFocusStack unfocusView:] + 135
3 com.apple.AppKit 0x914159d1 -[NSView unlockFocus] + 117
4 com.apple.AppKit 0x9162da96 -[NSMatrix drawCellAtRow:column:] + 90
5 com.apple.AppKit 0x9158244a -[NSMatrix selectCellAtRow:column:] + 978
6 com.apple.AppKit 0x91630003 -[NSBrowser selectRow:inColumn:] + 301
7 com.apple.AppKit 0x9162273d -[NSNavBrowserDelegate reloadChildrenForNode:] + 2197
8 com.apple.AppKit 0x91621e78 -[NSNavDataSource _reloadChildrenForNode:] + 67
9 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f6af -[NSNavDataSource _handleChildrenChanged:] + 275
10 com.apple.Foundation 0x9264fcdc _nsnote_callback + 364
11 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e5a9da __CFXNotificationPost + 362
12 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e5acb3 _CFXNotificationPostNotification + 179
13 com.apple.Foundation 0x9267d0fc -[NSNotificationCenter postNotification:] + 124
14 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f4be +[NSNavFBENode _postNotificationForEvent:notificationName:parent:child:fbeProperty:] + 542
15 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f299 +[NSNavFBENode _postNotificationForEvent:notificationName:parent:child:] + 70
16 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161f24a +[NSNavFBENode _postNotificationForEvent:notificationName:parent:] + 63
17 com.apple.AppKit 0x9161e918 +[NSNavFBENode _reallyProcessNotifications:] + 700
18 com.apple.Foundation 0x926a9e0d __NSFirePerformTimer + 477
19 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e779c2 __CFRunLoopDoObservers + 466
20 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e78d25 CFRunLoopRunSpecific + 853
21 com.apple.CoreFoundation 0x95e79d18 CFRunLoopRunInMode + 88
22 com.tcltk.tcllibrary 0x0a077bd3 Tcl_WaitForEvent + 679
23 com.tcltk.tcllibrary 0x0a0557ea Tcl_DoOneEvent + 312
24 com.tcltk.tklibrary 0x0b011f20 Tk_MainLoop + 36
25 com.tcltk.tklibrary 0x0b01dd26 Tk_MainEx + 1513
26 org.puredata.pd.wish 0x00002acb 0x1000 + 6859
27 org.puredata.pd.wish 0x00002a7e 0x1000 + 6782
28 org.puredata.pd.wish 0x000029a5 0x1000 + 6565

well, it's late and I'm tired of trying to find out how to solve this the hard way. I have a weird suspicion that these are caused by the same kind of problem.

can anyone point me to a solution to these two problems on Mac OS X with Gem? I've tried with different versions of pd-extended and Gem.

1. gemwin will create a window, but it has no control - the menu bar at the top is there but there is no active buttons on it - they lack color of any sort. The window itself is stuck there. can't be moved.

2. any time I open a file via openpanel object I crash. sometimes this will crash firefox too - though randomly. sometimes crashes without crash report, or the ability to access the crashreport.

I've tried to fully uninstall all forms of pd, and pd files from the library/prefs folder but the same thing happens no matter what on both errors.

thoughts? The crash report always says thread 0 is what crashes.

a.

under preferences:
input device1: jack, channel 2
output device1: same as input.

compute audio is checked on

under the media menu:->port audio:
input device 1 : jack router 2 channels
output device 1: jack server 2 channels

under the media menu->jack
input device1: jack, channel 2
output device1: same as input. channel 2

the machine i'm using is a g5 xserve machine with a virtual output, located in a rack far away from me, behind the locked doors of an IT dept that has granted me remote desktop access. Though while it was at my place it was connected to an USB audio interface it had sound output when doing the audio/ MIDI tests or just patching an oscillator.

I'm not doing realtime audio output but recording to an mp3. my mp3 contains sounds generated from oscillators and samples, but none from the MIDI instrument i am triggering inside pd and played through simple synth.

Curiously jack display in its routing window both pd and simple synth, but also another instance of pd, named: pure_data_0, though i don't have two instances of pd running simultaneously.

I emailed jackosx and stephane letz replied back saying:

"Last time i checked the way PureData access jack, it was just broken! I mean the PD jack
code (implemented in a s_audio_jackd.c) has several problems, one of which is *never*
correctly closing the jack client. This could explain the fact you see several instances
of jack client.

I suggest to send a mail to PD developer and signaling the problem."

his comments makes me think the same problem cold be encountered using soundflower. so before i go down that patch, i'd rather finish thoroughly troubleshooting this combo, with the help of other users...
jean

i'm looking for a free solution too. i don't think my original idea is going to work out because i don't have the time to implement it. maybe some of you have ideas for the problem i am trying to solve.

the problem is this:
i am helping a professor with some research. for his research he is doing a case study on 3 composers. he is asking them to record a narrative of there thoughts on the composition process as they compose. for this, the composers will be working an a mac studio workstation putting the composition together in logic. a second computer, a pc , running audacity will be used to record there sounds. when the composer reaches what they consider a significant change in the program, we are asking them to save their project to a new file (so we end up with a series of files showing the various stages of the composition). we would like a way, however, to map the timestamps of those files to the 'timeline' of their narrative.

here are a few solutions that are not exactly desirable:
a. do not stop the recording at all and make a note of what time the recording started. this means that you can calculate what time speech is taking place by adding the number of minutes and seconds (and hours) to the time at which the recording started. the problem with this is that it will yield very large files which are not very practical, especially considering that we have to transcribe these files.

b. have the composers start each segment of narration with a timestamp: "it is now 9:15 on tuesday...." as part of the research methodology, this creates problems with the flow of a more natural narrative of the compositional process.

c. have the composers save each segment of narration as a seperate time-stamped file. the problem here is that this takes more time, and could create a lot of files that would be very annoying to work with when it comes to transcribing.

c. my idea was to have, instead of just input from the microphone, 2 streams of audio input,one on the left channel and one on the right channel. on the left, would be the recorded narrative. on the right, would be an audio signal that encodes a time stamp. i was think of simply convert a number such as DDMMHHMM (day, month, hour, minute) into DTMF tones. these could then be translated back into a timestamp. an 8-tone dtmf sequence would be generated every 10 seconds or so. this way, as long as the narrative segment was longer than 10 seconds, it would contain a timestamp. the problem with this is that i have no way to mix such a signal with the input from the microphone.

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks.